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How to wire points - Trams. - Other Areas. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon May 4th, 2020 07:10 am
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Claus Ellef
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Hi all,
I have bought two used points for Wombat Creek Tramways for a very good price. Until now all my points have been with insulfrogs, but these ones are electrofrogs (I think). They may come from a DCC lay-out, but I am building DC (analog).





How do I do the wiring? The photos show the upside and downside of the points. The green, white and black wires are for the solenoid. I don't know the purpose of the blue, red and yellow wires. There is a connection between the two red arrows and the two blue arrows and room for wire at the green arrow. I guess a wire should go from under the frog to somewhere at the back, but where?

Please, can I have some help!



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 Posted: Tue May 5th, 2020 03:04 am
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xdford
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Hello Claus,
I don't know exactly how the switches are connected (I don't have any of these) but the connections would be to select which rails are connected to the frog to keep it "live". You will have to insulate the other side of the frog for this as well on both rails.  

Effectively you should have three wires the central one of which should go to the frog while the other two go to their respective side rails, possibly just connecting to either the feed wires for that block or connected to the adjoining rails. Depending on which way the motor is thrown will also set the electrical path. The central wire (and I am prepared to be corrected on this) whould go to where you have the remnant of the wire underneath the frog.

A diagram to follow if you need it!  I am expecting a few phone calls today so it might be a little while in coming.

Cheers

Trevor

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 Posted: Tue May 5th, 2020 05:16 am
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Claus Ellef
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xdford wrote: Hello Claus,
I don't know exactly how the switches are connected (I don't have any of these) but the connections would be to select which rails are connected to the frog to keep it "live". You will have to insulate the other side of the frog for this as well on both rails.  

Effectively you should have three wires the central one of which should go to the frog while the other two go to their respective side rails, possibly just connecting to either the feed wires for that block or connected to the adjoining rails. Depending on which way the motor is thrown will also set the electrical path. The central wire (and I am prepared to be corrected on this) whould go to where you have the remnant of the wire underneath the frog.

A diagram to follow if you need it!  I am expecting a few phone calls today so it might be a little while in coming.

Cheers

Trevor
Hello Trevor,Thank you for your reply!
I think you are right. I will do a 'test run' and let you know!



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 Posted: Tue May 5th, 2020 05:56 am
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xdford
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th
Claus,  I found this diagram showing effectively what you have but the arrangement seems different for the switch. You will need to check the switch positions with a multimeter on what you have to equate it with this diagram,

Hope this helps

Regards

Trevor

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 Posted: Tue May 5th, 2020 06:06 am
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Claus Ellef
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Hi again,
I will give it a go!



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 Posted: Tue May 5th, 2020 06:14 am
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peterm
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What you have there Claus is a Peco Double throw switch. It's difficult to explain how to wire it, but it should be self evident if you stare at it for long enough. :) The switch in the diagramme is also a Peco, but a single throw which is all you need if you're not using the other side for position indicators/signals etc. There's absolutely no difference in wiring an electrofrog point between DC and DCC. In other words no such thing as "DCC friendly." Just operate the point by hand as you look at it upside down and you'll see that you can pick either side to switch the frog.



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 Posted: Wed May 6th, 2020 07:46 am
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Claus Ellef
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Thank you Trevor and Peter. Problem solved!
My next problem is an Atlas crossing. The 'groove' on the inside of the rails is not deep enough (I think) for a couple of my old locomotives, which the Tramways use for maintenance work! If I can't cut it deeper, I am afraid the crossing will be on its way to the bin!



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 Posted: Wed May 6th, 2020 11:23 am
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Petermac
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Older locomotives had much deeper flanges Claus so can't negotiate "modern" track.  It could be your crossing is a Code 75 or Code 80 rail and your tram is designed for Code 100.  You can find out by measuring the height (depth) of the rail itself.

As far as I'm aware, it's not really practical to cut deeper grooves in the track base although in theory, it should be possible .....................

Let us know how you get on .........



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 Posted: Wed May 6th, 2020 11:53 am
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xdford
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Hi Claus and Peter,
Not that I have "deepened" an Atlas crossing but would it be reasonable to ask what the model is that you are trying to get through it? The older Hornby and Triang based locos will have an issue because of deeper flanges and Triang based locos were notoriously under gauge which is fairly easy to correct. 

Atlas products are not as consistently engineered as Peco ones - have a look at the frogs of left and right hand points sometime and there can be a very notable difference in the flangeways of them. I have no experience of the 90 degree crossing except that the frogs may not allow contact to be maintained on shorter wheelbased locos. Are we talking Code 100 or smaller?

I have just looked at an illustration and wonder if the plastic "square" in the centre of the crossing can be shaved a bit thinner? If you have an NMRA gauge, check your wheelsets and the clearances of that crossing and treat it accordingly.

Hope this helps

Cheers from Ocean Grove

Trevor 

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 Posted: Wed May 6th, 2020 10:57 pm
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peterm
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Another way id to remove the wheels and turn down the flanges to an acceptable depth. If you can access a lathe, that's good, but if not, I've read about people using an electric drill and a file to do it. Easy with a diesel or electric loco but with a steamer with outside valve gear you have to re quarter the drive wheels.



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 Posted: Wed May 6th, 2020 11:16 pm
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Claus Ellef
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Hi all,
Thank you very much for all your comments and suggestions. 
The four 90 degree crossings are fine. The problem is a 19 degree crossing a little further along the line. It is a code 100 so the problem lies in the construction. I will have another go at it later today. I must finish teaching from home first. 



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 Posted: Thu May 7th, 2020 02:14 am
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xdford
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Claus,
Check the lead in to the crossing, perhaps even using it loose and testing locos going across it on the bench rather than on the layout to see where the issue might be with the wheels.  With the 19 degrees, I wonder if there is a side movement perhaps hitting the guard rail causing lift before it gets to the frogs. 

You have mentioned "old locos" which I presume means you have got some chassis that you have modified - it might help to know what those are as someone here should have a bit of experience with the same or similar chassis/base loco etc.  Otherwise would a Peco short crossing not fit instead with extra approach rails?  

We might be in a can of worms with this one... keep in touch!

Cheers

Trevor

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 Posted: Thu May 7th, 2020 12:07 pm
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Claus Ellef
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Problem solved





The photo shows 'the weapon of choice'. With this rather brutal saw I have cut along the rails and managed to lower the grooves to 1.5 mm. The little vintage (over 40 years old) Kleinbahn diesel runs through the crossing without any problems even at low speed. I will return to my main entry Wombat Cree Tramways and report further progess with the extension.



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 Posted: Thu May 7th, 2020 08:32 pm
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Petermac
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Carefully machining thin slivers of plastic with fine precision tools usually sorts out most minor faults Claus ........................................ :mutley :mutley :mutley



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 Posted: Thu May 7th, 2020 10:20 pm
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BCDR
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If the Kerf fits....

Many diamonds have conducting metal strips buried in the plastic to power the inside rails. 

Nigel



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 Posted: Fri May 8th, 2020 12:51 am
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xdford
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Hi Claus,
Well Done and an admirable solution with basic tools. As Nigel pointed out, you could cut into conductive strips going too deep as well as upset the holding of the rails by the plastic moulding so care is needed but it would seem that you have exercised that well.

When you come to lay that crossing in its final place, just be careful that it does sits as flat as it would on the bench. I have one Peco short crossing that has a tendency to bow very slightly upwards and cut contact even with an 8 wheel loco travelling over it. The main issue is most likely the different expansion and contraction rates of the plastic base and the rails and in my case the extremes of weather to which the layout has been subjected.  My layout was in a shed when we lived nearer Melbourne. The full range of temperatures it would have experienced would have been in the -1 or -2C through to about 45C (and warmer on one or two days). 

I take it your layout is inside  as  mine is now so the extremes will not happen in my case again but there will be movement. Part of living here in Australia I suppose!

Cheers 

Trevor

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 Posted: Fri May 8th, 2020 02:49 am
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peterm
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:lol: :lol:Petermac wrote: Carefully machining thin slivers of plastic with fine precision tools usually sorts out most minor faults Claus ........................................ :mutley :mutley :mutley



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 Posted: Fri May 8th, 2020 05:36 am
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Claus Ellef
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Hi again,

I started out with a less 'brutal' tool, but it took too long. So out came the saw. I was very careful not to go too deep and took several measurements. The advantage with the saw is, the blade has the right thickness for the required groove.

The tramways are inside the house and I make sure to draw the curtains during the warmer/hotter days. I hope I will not the any expansion issues. One issue I do have is, Atlas' sleepers are thinner than Peco's. 2 sheets of 300 g paper to be exact. Easily solved, though. 



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 Posted: Fri May 8th, 2020 02:34 pm
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BCDR
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Hi Claus,

The rail profile is slightly different as well. Which usually means fettling the joiners.

Nigel



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