Video Archive         Recent Topics      
YMR logo

You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > Getting You Started. > Electrics - DCC > DCC - Tutorials > Video of Stay alive demo To bottom of page
                 

 Moderated by: Spurno Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2   
Start New Topic Reply Printer Friendly

Video of Stay alive demo - DCC - Tutorials - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
AuthorPost
 Posted: Mon Oct 14th, 2019 06:52 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 21st post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 17054
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Nigel - I think you're missing the point here ............

There are indeed, many factors that can effect the smooth running of a locomotive, some are track related, some are mechanical related and some are electric related.

Track in days of yore was nothing like as high quality as today's offerings - just have a look at a Peco double slip from 10 years ago compared with one made last year.  The difference is stunning.  The old ones worked but Peco improved them.

Go back those 10 years and compare the running qualities of any locomotive with one manufactured today.  The old ones worked but the manufacturers improved them.

The same goes for electrics - controllers and motors are far superior today, pick-ups are both better and more numerous and, presumably, the metals used a better conductors.

A stay-alive simply removes one of the potential weak links on a layout so why not use it.  As Paul said, belt and braces.

When I bought my "shed " and layout, I questioned his use of dead frog points.  The reply ?  He couldn't "get on" with live frog points so fitted stay-alive's in all his locos instead .......................my point exactly........

I'm not convinced that I lay electro frog points any better than I do dead frogs and I do pay particular attention to keeping the switch/running rail contact area clean but, on Maxmill 1, running improved dramatically when I changed to live frogs .......................




____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Oct 14th, 2019 07:47 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 22nd post
Paul Chetter
Full Member
 

Joined: Tue Jun 5th, 2012
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom
Posts: 169
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides


This is a debate which could run and run.

My post makes no suggestion that Stay Alives should be used a) at all, or b) as a substitute for good tracklaying and vehicle maintenance. I really couldn't give fig what people chose to do with their own property and money.

But I am prepared to explain more fully something raised as a suggestion for other's consideration, especially when I have some relevant experience. That is not an endorsement of the practice.

There's no disagreement between us that track, electrics and pick-ups should be a good as possible. That's always been true, you're not telling us anything new.

Where you and I differ is what type of advice to give.

Saying (in effect) 'you should have done it this way' or 'the only correct way is....' is not particularly constructive for the recipient whose models currently do not run well.

'Here is something which could help for now' on the other hand empowers the individual with enough reliable information to make a satisfactory (for them) decision on how to proceed, without being judgemental.
Stay Alives are an intrinsic part of modelling too. Treat them as such.

And finally, if someone brought a model to my layout and it didn't run properly, then naturally it would be their model at fault, wouldn't it? LOL

Best regards,

Paul

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Oct 14th, 2019 10:15 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 23rd post
Colin W
Full Member


Joined: Thu May 2nd, 2019
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 191
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I see two separate issues here regarding the merits of Stay Alives.

With Sound installed they are highly desirable as any minor interrupt will reset the sound program. On 0-6-0 locos and smaller, even with near perfect pickups / clean and level track occasional resets are hard to avoid.

For relative beginners like me, who on starting out chose not to install point motors / power switching are left with Insulfrogs and those dead areas, again problematic for the smaller x-6-x configurations.
I've even on-sold one otherwise lovely Bachmann 45xx Class because its chassis was clearly "off centre" in some way and would loose contact in a double curved point despite my every effort. It's replacement has been fine.

For insulfrog users, careful additions of Stay Alives can turn the worst of poor performing small wheelbase locos into decent runners. For that I'm personally very grateful since tearing up my entire layout was not an option.

Tantalum tantrums
On this related issue, ZIMO's SACC 16 has been specifically designed for them to sit on board and I've trusted them to be of matching quality to the rest of their gear. If anyone is worried, they can be located away from the chip as the little PC board will go just about anywhere, dress it in full battle armour if you're really worried!

They are wired in parallel.



____________________
Colin
Westown - Heathfield,
Steam on the GWR
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Oct 15th, 2019 02:17 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 24th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3315
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Hi Colin,

While not wishing in any way to put off newcomers to the hobby, there are clearly a lot of issues here.

First off, and to John , my apologies for inadvertently using way too much of this topic.

Secondly, everything I have read from all commentary still points to addressing the fundamental issues of the track and or poor performing locomotives before resorting to stay alives. 

Thirdly, I use stay alives, not for addressing poor sections of trackwork, but to deal with those micro -pauses in continuity that can happen. 

Dead frogs. I had a look at the Peco diagram. They are around 1.5 cm long. An 0-6-0 should have no issues getting across that as at least one wheel will be conducting current at all times (and to all other wheels). Old dead frogs were I think a lot longer. Peco electrofrogs have their own issues due to using power routing. There are plenty of resources dealing with how to make them work with DCC.

An important part of this hobby is getting the track work correct. Especially as UK modeling usually involves small locomotives. This it not about "do it my way" (where you would be building your own!),  but making sure it works from the get go and not using bandaids to try and correct it. 

Nigel




____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Oct 15th, 2019 09:08 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 25th post
Colin W
Full Member


Joined: Thu May 2nd, 2019
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 191
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Likewise, my apologies to John for the diversion.

I'd like to capture the learning from my various experiences but will post separately, under "The Trials and Tribulations of the Insulfrog Modeller" perhaps. Believe me, the hours spent trying to get my first 45xx to work certainly warrant that title!

I agree with Nigel's point
"Secondly, everything I have read from all commentary still points to addressing the fundamental issues of the track and or poor performing locomotives before resorting to stay alives."

Sometimes poor performing locos have issues that are not readily fixed, especially for the less gifted in that department and it is here that Stay Alives have been a saviour for me.







 



____________________
Colin
Westown - Heathfield,
Steam on the GWR
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Oct 22nd, 2019 09:12 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 26th post
Headmaster
Full Member


Joined: Sun Jun 2nd, 2013
Location: Faversham, United Kingdom
Posts: 992
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

This has all been very interesting.  I note the new Zen Black decoders don't need a stay alive.....
I can be very frustrating  when a patch of dirt or whatever causes poor running.... this does seem to answer that problem.  Like others, if I had a persistent problem, I'd being resolving it, not covering  it up.

Michael



____________________
Michael

Faversham Creek

"There is no harm in repeating a good thing." Plato
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

This is topic ID = 16228     Current time is 09:29 am Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2     
You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > Getting You Started. > Electrics - DCC > DCC - Tutorials > Video of Stay alive demo
You can type a quick reply to this topic here. Click in the box below to begin.

Or to reply to an individual post, or to include images, attachments and formatted text,
click the Quote or Reply buttons on each post above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start New Topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.
Start New Topic


Back to top of page

           
15 Most Recent Topics

Problems with this web site? Please contact the Webmaster.

All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted.
Unless stated otherwise, all the material displayed on this web site, including all text, photographs, drawings and other images, is copyright and the property of the respective contributor. Registered members are welcome to use it for their own personal non-commercial modelmaking purposes. It must not be reproduced or re-published elsewhere in any form, or used commercially, without first obtaining the owner's express permission.
The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.    © 2008

                 

Recent Topics Back to top of page

Powered by UltraBB 1.15 Copyright © 2007-2011 by Jim Hale and Data 1 Systems. Page design copyright © 2008-2013 Martin Wynne. Photo gallery copyright © 2009 David Williams.