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 Hi All.  I thought that I would have a go at “ kit building “ ? Which may end up with Bashing or bodging, I have just opened the packet. The first question is cement or weld, the instructions state that some parts may have to be trimmed, is this with a “ sand board “ as in the Ladies nail bar? or a needle file. I have begun kits before, but, don’t always finish them. One kit the Ratio bogie b passenger brake van, was going well but I was disheartened by all the fiddly bits of etched parts, and a pair of doors that went in back to front, and the glue was so strong that I couldn’t shift them. I will have to see how I get on?   Any advice please.    Best wishes Kevin 

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Trimming usually means removing "flash" from the injection molding process. This happens with old molds that leak molten plastic between the joints. You will find this with Ratio kits as well, especially the old 4-wheel ones. Nail emery files and a fine scalpel usually do the job.

Cement versus weld. The big difference is that cements contain solvent and a lot of styrene, welds contain solvent and little or no styrene, and rely on melting both surfaces with solvent so that they weld together. The joint is usually not as strong as found with cement, but sufficient to keep the pieces together. Rule of thumb is the thicker the  glue the more styrene monomer it contains. Disadvantage of solvent-based welds is that you only have seconds to do the job. That's why jigs to hold right-angled sections together are used, the weld is ls literally painted into the joint. Small parts are best dealt with using a very small drop of cement. Metal etch to plastic needs CA.

I found a combination of thin and thick solvent welds along with some plastic compatible CA for etched add-ons works well on most plastics.

Nigel


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I agree with what Nigel says about the glue Kevin it pays to have both, the solvent is great but you have to be fast with it Sometimes you would love to use the solvent but its not practical to use in certain circumstances.

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Hi Nigel.   Thank you for your reply. I have, somewhere, some magnetic corner pieces that would do the job, but I cannot locate them. I have got and used with success “ Revell contacts professional “  on plastic kits . The kit has so many parts, to lose, I had better be careful.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Brian.  Thank you for your reply. I have just replied to Nigel about “ Revell contacta professional “ , and unless I hear something to the contrary I will use that.  Firstly, I have to locate the magnetic corners, to keep everything square.    Best wishes Kevin 

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I use Lego bricks to make a right angle. Hold the pieces in place with clothes pegs. Cheap and cheerful. And they make great bracing inside box vans. I buy the bricks by the pint or quart. I had one of those fancy jigs - spent more time setting up than assembling. WOT.

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Thank you for your reply .  So far I cannot remember where my “ York “ magnets, by I did have success with another Dapol/ Airfix kit, the Loco shed . Watch this space, I may find the magnets yet.  Best wishes Kevin 

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You said "any advice ?" Kevin.

Three words - patience, patience and patience !!!

Read (and understand) the instructions/exploded drawings.

Dry fit parts first.

Don't rush anything - if you're not 100% sure, check again before applying any glue.


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Hi Petermac. Thank you for your reply. At least there isn’t much in the way of instructions , there is however an exploded diagram , and for thickos ( which I don’t require ) the parts are numbered, which I have been reading through. But I have been going through boxes today trying to find the safe place where I put the “ corner magnets “ that I supported my previous kit with. There is a small amount of plastic that I have to clean off. Maybe it would be quicker to buy a new set?  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel. If you buy Lego bricks by the Pint 🍺 or the Quart , where do they all go, or do you leave them in situ?As for clothes pegs, my recent spell in Hospital left my fingers on both hands with   pins and needles, leaving my fingers weak. I think that I will have to add weight with “ liquid lead “.  Best wishes Kevin 

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They get used for lots of things -fuel tanks, exhaust stacks, platform edging, faux brick/block, bridge piers, along with right angles and internal bracing.Nigel

The Lego store has pint and quart sized containers that you fill from the different bins, real mix and match. Plus the grandchildren use (and lose) quite a few.


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Hi Nigel.  Now that I have the Dapol Presflo Wagon Kits, before I build them, Kadee Couplings or NEM pockets need to be fitted which means that  I have to make provisions for either. Have you got any experience with fitting either coupler fitting on a plastic kit? I suppose it is no different from retro fitting a Kadee to any RTR Wagon. Best wishes Kevin 

Last edited on Thu Aug 15th, 2019 02:35 pm by Passed Driver

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The usual things - height gauge, the coupler, plastic shims (make your own or KD), glue and screw to go through the gear box hole. If you use NEM KDs you will need the mounting blocks from Parkside/Peco and some boxes from Bachmann NEM tension lock couplers.

I usually use KD screws and whisker couplers.


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Hi Nigel.  Thank you for your reply. I think that I will go along with that.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Petermac.  Yet another reply. Who am I kidding? In my haste to add a larger choice of wagons to my plank, I didn’t give painting and transfers a second thought. Oh Calamity, for a start I don’t want to purchase or even use an Airbrush . But I haven’t even done any painting of models let alone to a good standard, as for Transfers ?Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Looks like you are up there without the paddle. Some tips shortly when I get in the computer.

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Hi Nigel.  Thank you for your reply.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Back again hopefully with some paddles to get you down the creek. Based on my own experience:

Paint. Vallejo acrylics. They go on smooth and flat with a good brush, especially the airbrush range, which has finer pigment particles. Nothing railway specific, but the range is big enough. Somewhere on the web are the color equivalents for the big four and BR. Paint one side at a time and allow to dry keeping the wagon flat. Helps to have a production line going. If you do 3 wagons at a time, the paint is usually dry on the side of the first one by the time you have done the last one.

Diluent. Do not use water, it just dilutes the acrylic and makes the paint weak. Use acrylic diluent. (This applies to all acrylic paints). Better repeated coats of thinned rather than one thick coat of undiluted.

Cleanliness. That plastic body needs to be grease-free. Quick wash and gentle brush in warm water with a drop of washing-up liquid, rinse well, pat dry with lint free paper towel ("Shop Towel"), and only handle by the top and bottom. Let dry overnight, or use the hairdryer on low.

Brushes. Use good quality sable or equivalent. Get these at an artist's supply shop. Keep them clean, never let paint dry on them.

Finish. Gloss acrylic after painting for transfer application. Brush on or rattle can.

Transfers. Try Robbies Rolling Stock, as they are full side transfers specifically designed for Dapol 5 and 7 plank wagons. Good selection of PO sides from the South East and London. Robbie recommends a very small drop of PVA in the water used to detach the transfer. Specials and one-offs as well.Bit thicker than regular transfers, takes a bit more work to get them into the crack between planks

Set and solve. Use a setting solution to get the transfer into the cracks, use a solvent solution to melt the edges into the background. I use Micro-Set and Micro-Solv. Full side transfers only need the setting solutions.

Finish. Matt acrylic after transfers are dry. Essential if using weathering powders. Brush on or rattle can.

Tools. Small sharp scissors, plastic tweezers (pointed and flat) for handing the transfer, sharp pin or needle for popping air bubbles, small plastic trays, water, shop towel.

If you need masking tape get the ones meant for model painting. They are low tack and thinner than regular masking tape. Tamiya or similar.

Try some small transfers to start with. How about some early BR ex-PO wagons painted grey, they just have a couple of small transfers at the bottom with the number and tare in white on black patches, plus white diagonals. If memory serves me you can get these from Modelmaster.Just checked, 2 different sets, includes the white diagonals.

There is a good reason why plastic wagon kits are less expensive than RTR ones fully painted and lettered (although Timpo printing not transfers, is used). :lol:

Be prepared for a few "well I never!" and "would you believe it?" moments. Nothing like letting it dry and realizing it is at a slight angle. %$#$%^& moment. Good soak in warm water will get it off, unless you gave it a coat of acrylic matt. Then you need some transfer remover.

Nigel


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply.  The transfers are included in the kit, but I will have to discover ( be careful) where to stick them? on the bodywork. I have got to find  a good art shop which has the brushes in stock. Another new thing is Set and Solve.And removing the grease, it is a pity that RTR , preferably Bachmann are not available, that would have saved a lot of faffing around.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Over here it's sold by Microscale Industries. emodels in Stoke on Trent sell it. As does Amazon UK.

Nigel


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Two types, which is most useful, or do they do different jobs?Best wishes Kevin 

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Different jobs, one to soften the transfer and allow it to sink into in nooks and cracks/gaps (between planks) or over strapping/framing/bolt heads, the other one is to gently melt the  the transfer so that it blends with the finish. No "patches". Go gently with this one, as it can melt the transfer if overdone. Nothing complicated to this, both are simply painted over the transfer when it is in position and dry. Repeat as necessary. There is a third one to put on prior to putting the transfer down. Basically reduces the surface tension so the transfer sinks rather than floats. Drop of water usually does the job. If you have ever hung wallpaper it's a doddle, if not it requires some practice.


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply.   Wallpaper? Alas, Mum was responsible for that job, I was better at stripping off the old stuff. Meanwhile , I had better learn about weathering if only to cover up my errors. Best wishes Kevin 

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Not done any decals myself Kevin, but a lot of people on another forum I'm on swear by this stuff.

https://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/decalfix-125ml-bottle.html


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Hi Ed.  Thank you for your reply. I have just looked at Humbrols ad on how to do it, and it looks very good .Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Having emailed Dapol on the subject of Couplings for their Presflo Wagon Kits, today I received a reply. They mentioned parts for tension lock Couplings. “ The pockets provided are not NEM’s”.
It looks like I will have to do my own experiments and trial runs, as I haven’t got any confidence that the plastic will support Kadees, and will have to check out the NEM pockets as recommended by Jeff (SR Man) from Parkside and then fit the, droopy Kadees and prop them up. There is a note about some parts maybe out of shape, remedy place in bowl of warm water and bend to shape? Sounds a bit dodgy to me. The Magnets came from York Magnets today and I realised that although they are excellent for holding “square flat parts together “ they do not work so well with the Presflo Wagon Kits as they are neither square nor flat.   Best wishes Kevin 

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Kevin, the droopy Kadee couplers is not the fault of the coupler but the box they sit.

It was known many years ago that some plastic kits needed some warmth to get them back into shape.

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Hi Kevin,

The Parkside kit is the mounting block, not the NEM pocket. Unless this has changed since I last bought them.This provides a triangular mortise into which the tenon-NEM pocket found on Bachmann NEM tension lock couplers is attached. You will need the mounting block and Bachmann NEM couplers, the tension lock part gets binned. 

Makes this method expensive and wasteful. Adjusting the height is a pain as well, as usually some of the mounting block height has to be taken off, and the blocks have to be glued on, no mounting ho!es. This is a weak point. See my post of several years ago on how to do this.

I have gone back to using regular gear boxes and whisker couplers, which can be glued and screwed using self-tapping screws or a regular screw going into an undersized drilled hole.

Kadee will even do most of the work for you for a bit more. Set #3 is 4 assembled #148 medium length, center set whisker couplers mounted in gear boxes. Shim to height, glue and screw, or shim to height and screw. Gaugemaster has these, £7.00, enough for 2 wagons. 

One of the issues with most plastic freight kits is the design has not been updated to accommodate coupler changes. Some of the Dapol masters date back to Airfix days.
Caveat emptor.

Nigel

Edit. I just checked, the post was 6 years ago.





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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Just my luck. But I will do my best to get over it. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Ron. Thank you for your reply. Many years ago, when I was earning, I wouldn’t have bothered with Kits and in all probability if I had not been recommended to this kit and if RTR Presflo Wagons were a available now I would have saved up for them. But I will press on regardless. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

The price difference between a RTR Presflo and the kit is only about £4.00. And the RTR from their pictures comes with Dapol pockets (their version of the NEM 362). Which with a sliver of styrene as a shim and minimal fettling will accept Kadee NEM couplers without the droop. I am not sure what the kit comes with. Probably depends on the vintage. 

If you add in the time this takes you are probably better off buying the RTR version. It can get tedious and frustrating retro-fitting Kadees when a model wasn't designed for it and/or the manufacturer does not use NEM standards.

Nigel


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Hi Nigel.   Thank you for your reply. Apart from adding wagons to my layout, there is the “ Occupational Challenge “.As for my fingers not wanting to follow my wishes, I need all the challenges that will be found in model making .
Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel. I have come up with another question, the Dapol Presflo Wagon C40, the bodywork went together without a problem, but, now that I have started on the chassis 1/ do I assemble the chassis around the wheels or 2/ do I assemble the chassis and then squeeze in the wheels afterwards ?  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Afterwards when the plastic has hardened after gluing together. Leave it a few days. Never tried doing it wheels first with a plastic kit. Good point though. I have attached one side and then worked out where the other one goes using the wheel set when building to EM gauge.


I have done it wheels first with white metal kits. Not so flexible as plastic. Easier to use split axles and a sleeve.


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Hi Nigel.  Thank you. It is the way that they illustrate the instructions . In the third “ box “ maybe it is space saving, whereas if the chassis assembly was in the third box, and fitting the wheels was in another box, I wouldn’t have needed to pose the question. Painting could be another issue?   Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.   I have fitted the side frames, the wheels are in, and the glue is set on the ends , that support the Couplings.It rolls well, now there are a lot of fiddly bits to fit. And when/ if as it is the first one it is complete. There is the job of painting, and in such a way to allow the wheels to roll as before. Plus of course the weight. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

Wheels out when painting. Cover the bearings on the inside with a small square of masking tape.


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. That reminds me on these kits the bearings are plastic, which doesn’t seem as good as the separate brass ones.  Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel and interested parties. Somewhere on this fine forum I have read about British outline Rolling stock being too light for its own good. I have a bunch of Dapol RTR Wagons that I fitted with Kadee Couplings, and whilst I was about it , I added liquid lead. It strikes me that as my Kits haven’t got any weight at all, answer, more liquid lead, but, how much? Kit building is an interesting diversion, but will I bother with it again??? “ Answers on a Post Card “. Best wishes Kevin 

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There is a formula Kevin - I should know it because I've asked often enough.  If you look up NMRA standards, the suggested weights are there.  I you can't find it - Sol is your man.

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Kevin, rolling stock weight
https://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/rp-20.1.pdf       or
http://amra.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2016/03/massstandard.pdf

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Hi Petermac.  Thank you for your reply. I knew that I read it somewhere, I just hope that I get that far with so many fiddly bits. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

One ounce plus 0.5 ounces per inch length. Or 28g plus 14 g per 25.4mm. Metal wheelsets add a bit more. 


That's for HO 1:87, and S 1:64. So good for OO.


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Hi Ron.  Thank you for your reply. I will have to read that very carefully, with the Dapol RTR Wagons I filled all the space available. But now I have the answer I will comply with the standard. Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Nigel.  Thank you for your reply. Sounds good, but why more for metal wheelsets? With these wagons I think that the centre of gravity may be higher, not so good for Shunting. Best wishes Kevin 

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I dunno why, but for some reason I've got 30 grams stuck in my head for OO gauge wagons.

Could be when I was playing around with my shunting puzzle plank and trying out Kadees.


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Hi Ed. Thank you for your reply. My modus operandi for Dapol RTR Wagons was to unscrew the bodywork and fit the Kadees then carve up some styrene and frame the liquid lead before gluing it in position. And of course reassembly.Best wishes Kevin 

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Hi Kevin,

If you compare plastic wheels with metal ones the metal ones mass more. one of the reasons they run better.The NMRA guidelines are in my opinion a bit light. 


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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. Fortunately the wheels are metal, but, if they weren’t I would have changed them.Regarding mass , I would have thought that meant say comparing tractor tyres with lorry tyres. I try to follow expert advice, provided that it is given by experts? Best wishes Kevin 

Last edited on Mon Oct 7th, 2019 06:09 am by Passed Driver

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Hi Kevin,

Mass is just the amount of matter a body has. Two wheels, one of plastic (mostly carbon) one of metal (usually a metal alloy) of the same dimensions will not weigh the same. Carbon (atom)  has a lower mass than copper or iron (atom). That is why lead or more commonly now steel is used as weights. You would need almost 20 times more plastic than lead if you went by volume. Probably more as there is a lot of empty space in plastic polymers. Should probably be comparing pure graphite rather than plastic.


Nigel

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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply. I can see the error of my ways /interpretation. Best wishes Kevin 


                 

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