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Hornby Terrier - Everything Hornby. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 06:56 am
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Passed Driver
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Hi All     I have probably asked a similar question before. My Hornby Terrier remains in its box untouched, and the horrors I have read about mazac? unless this model got away with it ? It may never run. According to Hornby I have to do all manner of things to fit and hard wire a Decoder . Now having just had a visit from Barry, my plank/ module is back in working order, Thank you Barry, although I have other Locos to run I would like to fit my Terrier, I have already purchased a tiny Decoder to fit in the Terrier, but have never Hard Wired a Loco before. Would someone please tell me the “ little blobs inside the Loco” TV suppressors?” , Hornby says, “ connect the Decoder to them? But are they necessary? And the pick ups going through the chassis? I am confused. Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 07:00 am
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Kevin, have a read of this
https://clarahost.clara.net/www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/hornbyclassa1xdccinstr.htm



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 11:37 am
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Hi Ron.  When I read the Hornby advice previously, it was quite different. It said drill holes file etc. Taking the weight out of a small Loco, with hardly any pulling power IMHO is a complete waste of time. Do you think that instructions these are much different? As for the suppressors, with DCC are they not surplus to requirements? Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 01:47 pm
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Hi Kevin,

The Hornby instructions use the boiler space for the decoder, the link to Bromsgrove that Ron gave used the bunker space with some of the weight removed. Both methods will change the weight distribution over the drivers. You can usually cut a boiler weight in half horizontally and still get a decoder in, although you would need to insulate the surface of the weight. And probably adjust the bunker weight so that the CofG is over the middle driver. I have used this approach with a Bachmann Prairie.

If you look at the design of the motor that capacitor occupies a lot of vertical space. Which should take a decoder of suitable thickness and width if it is removed. Boiler shells are usually quite thick, you can usually sand some off inside. if there is enough space the motor is covered with a thin sheet of thin styrene with a few holes drilled in it at each end to allow free movement of air. The armature rotation will act as fan bades. Fix the decoder in place with thin double sided adhesive foam or tape.

Most decoders have RF suppression circuitry built in. Read up the decoder specifications and dimensions. I always bin any capacitors, chokes and associated wiring or boards and start with a clean slate. That way you can wire it to DCC specifications. Which the likes of Hornby and Bachmann often do not follow when it comes to the motor. I have yet to see a kit build with any RF suppression. The small motor Hornby uses is pretty inefficient (square armature design) and cogs at low rpm, anything that can interfere with BEMF such as external RF suppression is not good.

I don't think you have a MAZAC chassis, only weights. If you are worried about their stability replace with lead sheet, it will occupy considerably less space as it masses more.

If you have concerns about direct wiring and frying the chips then don't! Use a 6 pin N-scale decoder and a 6 socket wiring harness. The latter gets soldered, not the decoder. Use a direct plug decoder to keep space requirements down.

You could always put the decoder in the cab/bunker, replacing the weight with lead. that will always create space. I used this approach with a Bachann 56XX. Go sound and sit a sugar cube on top. Minimal butchery and hacking. Place the crew at the doors and all is hidden.

Whatever you do, run the Terrier on DC for a few hours to make sure it runs well before you start doing the DCC conversion. You want to know before you start doing things that will invalidate any warranty. Plus if it doesn't run well on DC it will not run well with DCC.

Nigel



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 02:51 pm
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If your not worried about it you can put the decoder in the cab area that way you can leave your weights in place.
There are very small decoders available now.

Brian



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 03:14 pm
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Hi Nigel and Brian. I cannot lay my hands on it just now? but I have some time ago purchased a tiny Decoder as recommended by digitrains (it will be in a safe place.). And when I locate it I will tell you the make and model. Also “ Kaptan Tape “ has been recommended to me for insulating the Decoder, cheaper than a new Decoder. If I could contain it, liquid lead would solve the space issue. I found it easy to contain when doing wagons but not in a Loco.Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 03:29 pm
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The only thing i will add Kevin the model of the terrier you have are pretty crappy pick ups if you cant find the decoder you have put in a safe place i would recommend a decoder that has a stay alive unit with it especially for that model terrier.
I remember some years ago Max did a sound project with one of those i believe it was for Ron and i remember there was a bit of blue air from Max as it was problematic.

Brian



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 03:51 pm
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Hi Brian.  Thank you. I don’t know how good it is, but Dapol have a Terrier in different liveries and with either a Decoder or with  sound too .  But it isn’t at the top of my shopping list, or I could be tempted.   Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 04:24 pm
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Hi Kevin,

Until you locate the decoder it looks the project is on hold. Sound? Size? LDW? 6 or 8 pin? Direct plug-in with pins on the board  or harness? Bare harness or plug at the end?  Keep the weights or not? All of these will dictate where and how you install. 


Kepton tape. Hmm. Get the branded one, foreign me-too products are poor quality. Not wrapped around the decoder I hope. Even non-sound ones generate heat. Keep the board components uncovered if possible to allow circulation of air.  Many decoders come with a shrink wrap insulating film anyway. If it doesn't have one it is not meant to be wrapped.


As we all know I am not a fan of direct wiring if it can be avoided, having a pinned decoder and socketed harness avoids any possibility of damaging the decoder, and means a painless swap if changing it (for example no sound to sound). Having some big heat sinks on the wires and using low melt 100° solder helps avoid frying the chips. Practice on some of the Pugs with a cheap basic decoder if you decide you really have to hard wire. Two ESU sound decoders in the bin a few years ago convinced me that there is a better way!


Now would be the ideal time to run the Terrier on DC and make sure there are no issues. Backwards, forwards. If you have a rolling road you can leave it for an hour or more while at various speeds. Run it through some points and curves as well. Check the BtoB while you are at it. DOA is not unknown. 


Now that the shorting issue is gone you should be able to connect your DC system to the layout and get the Terrier tested.


I'm with Brian on this one, use the cab after getting rid of the RF electrickery and rewiring it properly. That way you keep the weights and the balance. MAZAC Is not the easiest  alloy to work with. OK if you have a mill, not so good with a file and hacksaw.


Nigel




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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 06:57 pm
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Hi Nigel. Speaking of the Decoder? Where it was I know, but where it is I don’t know now. But the Bachmann entry level DC Controller, I just connected it to my plank and it does work, which it didn’t. I gave my Hornby Terrier a slow run/ walk. As far as the pickups are concerned? Something seemed a bit iffy. Dapol have/ had a range of Terriers , but I hate to mention my shopping list again, the Dapol Terriers ain’t on top, otherwise I could be inclined to get one.Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 07:30 pm
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Kevin
If you are considering a new one you are probably better to look at the brand new Hornby release of this model not the Dapol one there are recent threads on here regarding the new terrier release.

Brian



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 07:40 pm
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Hi Brian.  Re the “ New “ Hornby Terrier ? Has there been a new dawn of enlightenment or something at Hornby?Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 07:44 pm
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Here ya go Kevin

The brand new one is super detailed and is DCC ready so just needs a 6 pin decoder plugging into it.

No losing weights or risking blowing it up.

Your local shop should stock

here is a link to kmrc

Brian

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/61900/R3783-Hornby-Terrier-0-6-0T-Steam-Locomotive-number-2662





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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 08:03 pm
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Hi Brian.   Local shop? Mind you I have purchased a lot from Kernow ( including the odd GWR/ error) I suppose that the Guildford store isn’t too far away, but local don’t come into it in London so much today. Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 08:22 pm
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The new Guildford store opens tomorrow i believe Kevin

I suppose its as easy to get a train there

Gone are the days of Beatties in Holborn high street i assume


Brian



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 Posted: Tue Apr 30th, 2019 10:30 pm
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The 'old' Terrier models from Dapol then Hornby (same model) aren't DCC ready but aren't all that difficult to convert. They are decent (if noisy) runners.

They are not in the same league as the new models, which are DCC ready.

I have converted three of the old models: the first two have TCS Z2 decoders hard-wired, and housed in the cab through a slot I cut below the firebox door moulding. Sitting vertically between the driver and fireman, they are all but invisible. The third model has the same decoder but this time mounted flat on top of a piece of plastic card, which is, in turn, flat on top of the motor.

If I wished to add a stay-alive to the third loco, that capacitor could then live in the cab.



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 Posted: Wed May 1st, 2019 06:56 am
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Hi Jeff.  Thank you for your reply. As you are here, I assume that you know I have misplaced my Decoder that was earmarked for the Terrier. One question springs to mind, our old is old? My Terrier was purchased as new post 2015 or 2016. I cannot remember which Decoder that is but it is somewhere in the Railway Room. Of course as I have already got the Loco in my MPD/ stable if I either locate the Decoder or purchase another one I can use the Terrier as a Guinea Pig for converting other Locos to DCC. Just one question, the vertical slot that you cut below the firebox door, did you drill holes and join them together filing the moulding? Please advise. Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Wed May 1st, 2019 08:47 am
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Hi Kevin.

From 2015 or 2016 your Terrier will be the 'old' one. The new one only arrived this year.

The slot I cut below the firebox door was a horizontal one, not vertical, but it allowed the decoder to be inserted and stand vertically in the very front of the cab. As you surmised, I drilled several holes and connected them to make the slot.

I used TCS Z2 decoders for all of my Terriers, but I would be tempted to use the even smaller and more compact CT Elektronik decoders if I was to do another (unlikely in view of the new Hornby Terrier and the yet to come Rails/Dapol one).

I have posted this photo before (can't remember where, though!), showing the third Terrier with the decoder just on top of the motor. This was a much neater solution than the previous two.


Terrier Decoder Fitting - 1 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr



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 Posted: Wed May 1st, 2019 09:09 am
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Hi Jeff.  Thank you. Since my reply, I have watched a review c/ o Sams Trains of the “ New” Hornby Terrier, the model that he was reviewing had poor pickups, which gave him some problems also he was not too pleased with the visible glue around parts, and it had a lot of plastic parts. Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Wed May 1st, 2019 03:29 pm
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Hi Kevin,

Sam is far too generous. I think it is fair to expect the model to run smoothly out of the box. Pick up adjustment is a minor issue. An incorrectly geared motor is not. Three pole motor and cogging. Hmm. Hopefully better with DCC.

I think I would invest a bit of time and work in the older model and wait until the QC issues are sorted.

Nigel



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