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Rob Pulham
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With the end in sight for the J79 my thoughts have started straying to the next build which is to be an LNER/BR J6 (ex Great Northern Railway) This is to be built from a Gladiator Kit which originated in the George Norton Connoisseurs Choice range (according to the etches). Extras include full inside motion from Laurie Griffin along with a few of his detailing parts. Once it's painted (by Warren Haywood) I will then be weathering it and adding the finishing touches.


We start with what's in the box.



 
First the brass castings and turnings





Then the very cleanly cast white metal details.








 


Then the etches, 


The chassis etches are quite substantial nickel silver etches, but the body etches feel much thinner so I suspect that they will require a bit of careful handling until they are soldered into a rigid structure.
 



 Wheels and Pick ups





Finally the extras, These are all from Laurie Griffin and were my suggestions to the gent that I am building it for to not only enhance it but to replace the vulnerable etched lamp irons.




   To Visit Rob's Coaching stock thread go             HERE




    To Visit Rob's Wagon Kit Bashing Thread go      HERE

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Brossard
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Blimey!  There's no stopping you is there?  Marvellous stuff.  One of these days I might just get inspired to tackle my 1F.  :lol:

John

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Great stuff here.  Hope you will give us a blow by blow account of your progress Rob.

Rob Pulham
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Hi Reg,

Yes, that's the plan.

The J6 is is officially underway,

I decided to build the tender first to get a feel for things and the plan is to use the tender for the pickups so hornblocks were fitted. The good news for this plan is that there were etched cut outs for fitting them with certainly simplified things.

All the wheels are blackened but I need to stock up on steel 10ba csk screws because I haven't enough to do the drivers.
The horn guides are Finney but I seem to have misplaced the strips for retaining the hornblocks so I used a trick borrowed from Warren Haywood and used surplus 12ba nuts and bolts from Slaters crank pins to create retainers. In fairness I could have probably just soldered strips of scrap etch across the bottom because the Slaters wheels are easy to remove.

At the minute there is a lot of side play. I plan to leave this for the moment because the finished model has to negotiate 5' radius curves. 














You will note in the last photo that I shimmed the spacers with some scrap etch I am not sure whether I really needed to but it helped to level the space with the top of the frames and to get a tighter fit with the rear spacer that goes through the frames mid way. I suspect that if I had tested it without removing the etching cusp I may not have needed it.

Rob Pulham
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Although it looks to have been a little quiet on the J6 front things have been progress albeit that it's taken a slight detour. 

After careful study of the tender in the photo v's what came with the kit, my client decided that he would prefer a different tender to make the loco match the photo. The alternate tender is now on order from David Hill at Gladiator but won't be available until March. I plan to continue to build the original tender, if for no other reason than to make sure I don't lose any of the bit's off it. - I have made a little more progress which I will share at some point.

Which means that thoughts have turned to the loco itself. I am very gratefully receiving help and guidance from Paul Pen-Sayers (@Locomodels) on building and fitting the inside motion in the chassis and I have been given Carte Blanche by my client to replace items in the same manner as I would if building it for myself.

So far I have elected to obtain some Premier coupling rods and some driving wheel springs from Ragstone. The latter I will need to modify but they will look a bit more like springs than the rather 1D etchings attached to the frames. In fairness to the kit, the etches are labelled 1992 and things have moved on a bit in the detail stakes since then.

This is what I mean  by 1D they are a single layer etch with just the outline of the strap that retains the leaves.



The reason I elected to go for the Premier rods is similar, in that the rods provided are only dual layer with the back layer half etched and they are designed to pivot on the crank pin rather than the knuckle joint. I could perhaps have modified them to pivot on the knuckle but without adding another layer from scratch, I felt that they would still be a bit on the delicate side for coupling rods. Paul of course made a superb job of those for Heather's build and I am guessing that he made up some additions in his workshop.

Moving swiftly on, I have started to clean up the inside motion parts and slipped some of them onto an axle to see how they fit.


 

 Much more work to do on them of course - including attempting to straighten those straps...





Last edited on Thu Dec 21st, 2017 10:44 pm by Rob Pulham

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I'll be watching this inside motion thing Rob.  Very neat.  This is where handbuilt models soar above RTR.  My J50 has inside motion.

John

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Hi John,
Much as I might fancy my J50 to have inside motion, I have kit's with much more space visible under the boiler than the J50 and at around £90 a set I need to be a bit choosy which I put it in. 

So far I have 3 kit's with inside motion put by, an F3, an F8 and a J25. The F3 and J25 are variations on Stephensons motion (single slidebar as opposed to the 4 slidebar version on the J6) while the F8 has Joy type.

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Proper miniture engineering going on.   Well done Rob. :thumbs.

Rob Pulham
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Thanks Reg,
As mentioned elsewhere a lack of time and energy has allowed me to do a few small jobs on the J6 that didn't require anything that wasn't therapeutic.

Although David had advised that it wouldn't be available until March it was a pleasant surprise when an email suggested that it could be collected at Bristol show. Warren Haywood very kindly collected it for me, so the build has resumed. Perversely I have decided not to start with the tender but to get the loco frames done next - it's to have working inside motion.

Parts of the etches do show their age and so it is with the loco springs which are a very basic etch. My client has asked me to build it as if it were for me so I have the discretion to obtain replacements for anything that I think could be improved upon.

The Hornblocks are Finney and were from stock so I will need to pick up some replacements for them from the Guys when I see them next.




The spring castings are from Andy Beaton  at Ragstone Models and will be modified to make them look more like the J6 springs before fitting.


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Further progress has the chassis together and ready for the fitting of the hornblocks.

Despite the quite substantial frames there was still a bit of flex in between the two main spacers and the rear one which is just soldered to the top left the bottom of the chassis with a tendency to splay outwards. To get over this I have temporarily soldered a third frame spacer (labeled motor spacer in and I also cut one of the wider frame spacers down and soldered it upright to take out the splay at the rear. 

As is comes there are three sets of spacers, marked from when it was blown up from a 4mm kit 00 gauge, EM gauge and P4 I am using the EM gauge spacers as a compromise between getting int to go around 5' curves and having sufficient room to fit the inside motion.






Before I go any further I am going to rework the springs and fit them before adding the Horn guides.

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A spring in the step,  or should that read, "some steps with the springs" (groan!)

We started with this.




I then patiently cut that down to get these separate pieces



What I am aiming for is a 3D profile of these





Then I started to re-assemble them - and to misquote Eric Morecambe all the right bits but not necessarily in the right order....




Monday evening should see them ready to fit (I hope!)

Last edited on Fri Feb 23rd, 2018 09:24 pm by Rob Pulham

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...to also misquote Morecambe "tiny but perfect in every detail".  I can't see a way to get in "short fat hairy legs" though.

John

Rob Pulham
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That made me chuckle John. Eric M was a comedy genius

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Yes Rob, nobody around today can touch those chaps from the 60 and 70s.

John

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To conclude this chapter here is part 3 of the modification. The plan is to drill and tap the frames 12ba and use them to retain the hornblocks.



I just need to pick up some more 12 ba screws at Kettering .

Rob Pulham
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The last couple of evenings have been spent removing the rest of the motion parts from the sprues and cleaning them up. All I need to do now is work out where it all goes....


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Yikes, looks complicated.  :shock:  Beautiful looking bits though.  I'm thinking inside valve gear so it will be an education to see how you put everything together.

John

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Hi John,
I suspect that I could have found an easier set of motion than this to make my debut. The GNR version of Stephensons is a little more complex than the Midland version that the motion set is designed around so I will need a bit of scratch build methinks to make it work as it should. That said my client probably wouldn't know the difference as long as it works and neither would I until I started to research it....

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I had originally planned to go to Kettering show this weekend with a stop over on Friday night. Taking the decision not to go has given me an extra couple of days of thinking/modelling time in which to really get my head into the inside motion.

Fellow modeller Paul Penn-Sayers had offered to cut out a motion plate for the J6 for me. Paul has also supplied lots of information and patiently answered my 'newby' questions regarding inside motion for which I am eternally grateful. While I fully intended to take up the offer events somewhat overtook me.

While studying the GA drawing to work out which bit was which on Wednesday evening I had the thought of importing it into Inkscape (the drawing package that I use to draw for the silhouette), rescaling it to 7mm scale and then highlighting the components that make up the motion so that I could see what they are.

[/url]

You can see the difference in the layout of the motion compared with the Midland variation in which the motion set from Laurie Griffin is based - below is a snip from the LG instructions.

[/url]

While I was doing my stuff in Inkscape, Chris suggested using my silhouette to create a template for the motion plate to test whether it would fit between the frames etc. I thought that a great idea and within a very short space of time I had drawn up and cut this



I used that to transfer the measurements onto a spare frame spacer and drilled/cut filed it out. Due to using it as a template to scribe around, some of the measurements were fractionally over size, while the internal ones were slightly undersized. I kept filing until the slide bars fit and I got this. - I added the framing top and bottom afterwards.

am[/url], on Flickr

Looking at Paul's and Nick Dunhill's superb motion plate examples,  I realise that I will have to file some relief in the tops and bottom of the slide bar seats/openings in a similar manner to the centre opening where the eccentric rods will pass through, in order to allow for the up/down movement of the piston rods.

This is it in the frames - held by a blob of Blue tack



Although as I say I am very grateful to Paul for his offer to cut one out for me and looking at the example posted by Heather Kay on Western Thunder, it would have been of a much higher fidelity than my first effort has achieved but it's a skill learned and Paul's help has helped me to make sense of GA's which has previously eluded me  - all the lines blurring into a shapeless mass. Another skill which will only improve with practice and should translate into better quality models at the end of it.

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That's some lovely engineering Rob.  Some great lessons for others.  :hmm

John

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Alongside creation of the motion plate, I had to prepare the slide bars and make the cross heads fit.

Once I had them running nice and smooth and having test fitted them in the motion plate,  I detailed them with the very prominent oil pots on the tops. Made from spare etch and nickel rod

I am not sure why but these proved and absolute pain to take photos of...




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Well, I would have thought taking the pictures are the least of your problems.  I really like to come up with solutions for scratchbuilding details.  Great stuff. :doublethumb

John

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Hi Rob,
Another ardent admirer here, that is lovely work you are doing. 'Proper' modelling of very high order!
Cheers,
John.

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Although there hasn't been much to share, work has been progressing on the J6.

We now have all the springs attached to the frame. Initially I though to have the centre springs removable and the for and aft ones just soldered on but in the end I drilled and tapped them all 12ba so they are all removable should the need arise.








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Thanks John.

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This is shaping up very nicely! You're a dab hand at soldering

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After my interlude with the Streamlined Coronations I am now back on the J6. 

Over the last couple of evenings I have prepared the Finney Hornguides/blocks (nicked) borrowed from my A1 kit until I collect some more from the guys at Telford.

Then I started on the instructions which have you prepare the outer chassis first and then attach it to the tender footplate. 

Here's where I got to on that last night.





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Further work on the tender last night got one of the more difficult bits behind me - bending the one-piece tank sides/end.
 
However, I will start off with a bit of a gotcha! The instructions tell you if modelling post 1940 to drill out two etched dimples on the rear right hand side of the tender for hand rails that must have been fitted to some tenders at some point. 
 
Having done it I immediately started to think I wonder. Sure, enough when I looked at photos of 64206 which is the loco being modelled I noted no rear handrail....
 
So, I opened out the holes to 1.55mm and soldered some stubs of rod in - this is it from the inside
 

 
And from the outside - thankfully nothing shows
 

 
Next the tender sides are rectangular but on the real thing on the tender that I am working on there are cut outs for a handrail as in this example by Ron Bowyer.
 
GNR/LNER Gresley "J6" class 0-6-0 No. 64223. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr
 
I have to confess to struggling with the instructions on this point so I went my own way. There are sections of etched beading to represent this and having worked out for myself how I believe they are meant to fit I tacked them to each end
 

 

 
This allowed me to scribe a line to cut/file to and then I unsoldered them and removed the bits that needed removing. Time will tell as to whether what I have done is correct but studying various photos it looks right.
 
The next job was to drill out one of two dimples for the front handrail knob - these are design for a short rail where the top is cut out as I have done or a long rail where the side is left at full height. I drilled out the lower ones.
 
Then I carefully marked out where the first bend should be and then bent it using my Metalsmith Drilling table with a rod slightly smaller than the required bend clamped to it.
 

 

 
If this sort of thing scares you take heart. I didn't get it right first time, I just calmly straightened it with fingers and thumbs finally using smooth bladed pliers to finish off and them remeasured and tried again. The first side (the one in the photos) I got right on the second attempt. The other side took three goes.... but I got there.
 
Next up is to solder in the bulkhead. 
 
Where the instructions are really lacking is that they refer to parts but don't number them so you are constantly searching the scans of the etches and the index to find out which part you are looking for - the scans are labelled with part numbers and there is an index but it would be so much better if the instructions had part numbers alongside the text.
 

 
Then lastly solder the side/end piece to the footplate.
 

 

 

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Well I have to admit I have reached a bit of the kit instructions that have really stumped me...

"Take coal space sides, note the handling and drill 1.85mm at half etched pops if fitting scoop and tank vents, then fold so that the sides fit into the coal space front plate, tack into position taking care to be square to front plate. Sit the assembly into it's slot in the sole plate and tack onto position square 'each way'"

I found the parts easily enough and put them together how I interpreted the instructions but then found that there was nowhere/way that they would fit.









There is a plan and top down outline drawing supplied but I can't figure out from which bit is the coal space front plate or which orientation it fits in.

My only saving grace is that there is one of these tenders attached to the C1 Atlantic at Locomotion so I plan to see if I can get aboard it when I am there next weekend to see how the coal chute/plate is made up on the real thing.

I am on my way to Telford tomorrow so I will have better things to think about until mid next week.

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The plot thickens. It seems that there are two externally visibly the same tenders which may well be the 3000 gallon version and the 3500 gallon versions. 
By extreme good fortune this year I have taken photos of both. I had forgotten the other until today though.
The first one is located at Shildon, attached to the C1 large-boilered Atlantic and, as proposed in a recent post, I asked one of the museum assistants if I could be accompanied aboard to take photos of the tender top on Saturday and he obliged.

The other is attached by coincidence to the small-boilered Atlantic Henry Oakley whom I encountered at York earlier in the year. Although not great and I didn't get aboard, I did get enough details from my photos to work out which version I need for the J6 and more importantly that the coal space on the kit isn't quite like the two preserved examples each of which are similar but different.

Firstly what the kit looks like:




Next the tender attached to the Large Atlantic







I have more detailed photos of the tender top on my Flickr site but these will suffice to tell the story to date.
Lastly the tender attached to Henry Oakley and the one which I believe that I need for the J6 when compared to the couple of photos I have of the prototype – no 64206 and more importantly the type that I believe the kit is meant to represent (unless there was a third type which looked externally the same.









As I said, not the best photos but they do show that one side is higher than the other and there is a representation of lockers albeit the prototype show a small door on the higher side whereas the etch has a full height door. The key difference though is in the coal space. Both types of tender have a parallel rather plain functional coal space and I would be surprised if there was a third type that had one with the sloping sides that are inferred by the etches. I think that Malcolm Crawley got it wrong when he designed the tender kit but I would be happy to be corrected in that assumption.

Unless some evidence comes to the fore fairly soon to tell me that I am wrong I intend to modify the coal space to be more like that of the tender attached to Henry Oakely.

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I have received a lot of information and help from a couple of gents via RMweb and the LNER Forum - Dave Lester and Paul Craig. With Paul's help I had determined that my tender was indeed a self trimming variety and Dave confirmed it by posting exactly the type of tender that was attached to my loco 64206 from 1935 -1960 (tender 614) and with further help from Paul I believe that I have worked out how it fits together too.
This has proven a very interesting side trip into the world of tenders from which I have learned a lot. I must also offer an apology to the late Malcolm Crawley for remotely suggesting that he might have had it wrong....
More progress to come as it happens

Last edited on Thu Sep 13th, 2018 08:03 pm by Rob Pulham

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Well, after all the discussion and mental hand wringing by yours truly I do believe that I have cracked it.

I soldered some scrap etch into each side of the front step of the tender and sods law dictates now that I have I will find suitable parts included (I confess that I didn't even check).







It's all dry fitted at this point and before soldering I do need to check that the tank vents will fit - I may have to straighten the curve a bit to create a flat ledge for the vents to sit on but if I do I will report back.




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I was right in my assumption that there would be part for the step infill - Oops!!

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I was short of time last night so along with finding the step infill pieces, I only managed to assemble the front coal plate and buffer beam.


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Although I haven't posted anything this week things have been progressing  albeit slowly. 

The reason for the slow approach has been a  combination of a lot of other things intruding and the fact that I couldn't get my head around how the front coal plate shown in the last post attached to the tender front itself. While I pondered I moved along by fitting hand rail knobs to the tender sides and fitting lifting rings to the coal space sides and tank top/coal chute. I still haven't assembled the innards because I want all the sub assemblies ready and to have an understand of how things fit before committing myself.

Before getting started on anything last night I re-read the instructions and saw the wood for the trees and ended up with this. Still a bit more to do but I am happy with progress.



There is mention in the instructions of a strip 49mm (I think but I don't have the instructions to hand so I will edit the post later and confirm) x 4.5mm
but I couldn't find the part so I used a suitable piece of scrap etch to make the infill piece for the back which forms a shelf behind the coal plate.








Lastly although not needed for my build but needed for the revision of the instructions I made up the two dome options which are included a rectangular combined dome/filler and the separate dome.



On the round dome everything was a perfect fit whereas on the combined dome I had to take a sliver of the two half etched overlaps to get them to meet squarely a simple exercise that took moments to do with a pair of topiary scissors


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The next job to tackle before starting to assemble everything was the flares and it proved a bit easier than anticipated. Having formed the curves I offered it up the tender and at first I was a little baffled (permanent state of mind at the minute) but quickly realised that I needed to trim the curved end of each side and then it would fit. 

I only got part of it soldered on before bed time last night so tonight I will finish that and then take photos.

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H Rob,

Just caught up with this thread and wanted to let you know that I am very impressed with what you are doing.
:thumbs

Rob Pulham
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Thanks Dave, :cheers

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As promised below are some photos of the flares as fitted. there is still much cleaning up and some filling of the corners with solder to do but so far I am very pleased with how they are going.

Starting with some shots after soldering on the flares but before starting to filling the corners with solder.









Then with the mostly filled in corners.





If they are of interest I also took a series of photos of my using my Proxxon vice with one soft jaw fitted to bend the curves on the flare strips.

Rob Pulham
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Last Thursday evening I made much progress on the tender for the J6.

The coal plate is now in as is the front section of the tender. 







There is still a goodly amount of cleaning up to do and the sides of the coal space are still to solder in but I feel that I have broken it's back now.

Rob Pulham
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More progress last night. Despite starting quite late I managed to get the two coal space sides in place. 

I had anticipated that one of them may not fit very well and might leave a gap that would in fairness be hidden by the coal but I was pleasantly surprised when after a little tweaking with pliers and a rub of some abrasive paper it went into place as it should. Just the details and coal rails to add now.







I am not sure why but I chose to use shiny sinks to clean it up after I finished instead of my usual Bar Keepers Friend and it turned all the solder black making it look to be worse than it is.

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It still looks very good Rob. :thumbs

Rob Pulham
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Thanks Reg :cheers

Rob Pulham
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Further progress on the tender for the J6. Starting off with a slight backward step.

While struggling with the instructions I hadn't read the text when fitting the lifting eyes I just followed the drawing which unfortunately showed the wrong type of backing plate. Reading through the text late last week I saw my error and by coincidence David Hill of Gladiator pointed it out the day after on the Guild forum. 

My customer had seen the post and said it didn't matter if they didn't show too much but it was only a few minutes of a job with the microflame and a scalpel to take them off and swap them for the right ones.





Next I added the vacuum and steam heat pipes to the rear of the tender.


Then I started on the front.





The brake standard was one that I had in my spares box that was left over from the B16 build. The other levers are bent wire and scrap etch.



The bucket is one of Jim McGeown's castings that I had sat on my desk for a long time after I had made a bit of a mess of trying to hollow it out.

I took it back into the workshop to see if I could do anything with it after being informed that the hole in the left hand side was for a bucket. I then remembered the collets that I had made for drilling the valve guide castings on the Streamlined Duchess and used one of them to tidy up the inside of the bucket top using a dental burr and lastly soldered a handle on from scrap etch.


Rob Pulham
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I didn't seem to make much visible progress in last night's session but I got the lamp irons on and hopefully you can see why I prefer to replace etched versions with cast ones where possible.



 I have also fitted one inside the side sheet at the front of the tender but alas the camera decided to focus on the nearside so the added lamp iron came out so blurred you couldn't see it. 

I will try again when I next take photos.

I did manage to add the tank filler though so another detail bites the dust.



Coal rails next I think.

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There are many things I see in this club and think, "I could have a go at that..." and then there are things like your model making where I just have to acknowledge a craftsman and say, "Wow!"

Great job.  Again!

Michael

Rob Pulham
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Thanks Michael,
Although I really appreciate the comment, I too had to start from scratch learning to solder etc. as I went along.

I was/am helped by the fact that my pleasure comes from the making rather than the running of model railways. I have built a lot of models in the last 10 years too which helps to perfect techniques.

Because we stayed in Wakefield this weekend it gave me an extra evening at the bench - usually I am worn out by the time we get to Bishop Auckland and rarely do anything once I arrive on Friday evening.

As luck would have it I was able to finish work early too so I had around 5 hours at the bench which saw off the remaining upper works details.

The coal rails were too long and I had to split them at the rear of the tender. I think that this is a result of the cut out in the tender flare for the hand grip which is a feature of this type of tender.

I followed David Hill's example and soldered half round beading over the coal rails and what an improvement it's made.





I also put half round beading in one the inside of the front hand grip sections to make it a round profile. and you can see the additional lamp bracket too which wouldn't focus on my last photo session.











I also got around not fitting a nut to secure the front of the tender top by tapping a piece of tube and soldering it in when the nut should be.

This just leaves me with the chassis which I have made a start on.

Rob Pulham
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Yesterday saw the tender completed apart from wiring the pick ups and setting the ride height which will be done towards the end of the build.







You will note that I have added an extra frame spacer. I did this because I am using the tender for pick ups and wanted to ensure that there was no flexing which might affect them - The brass spacer was a scaled up P4 spacer from the spares box which I cut down to fit.







Back onto the loco next.

Rob Pulham
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I spent 2 and 1/2 hours last night preparing the cradle for the foot plate which contains the valances....

Some this was my own fault because it's quite thick nickel silver and like David found out when he built one recently, you need to file a lot out of either side of the fold lines to allow the valances to sit vertical.  I had attempted to fold up one side some time ago which needs a bit of brute strength but then found that it wouldn't come to 90 degrees.

The first job was to straighten the side already bent enough to allow me to file out the fold line. I did this by annealing with the microflame and then using the vice to squash the etch back almost flat. Once I had filed the fold lines, I bent it as far as I could with one of the sides off a set of bending bars and then used a rubber mallet to bash it to the final 90 degree fold while the middle section was firmly gripped in a second set of bending bars to ensure that it stayed flat.

Hopefully I will get the footplate shaped and soldered on tonight so I will take photos after that.


                 

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