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Going large - building large layouts - Layout Design, Trackwork & Operation. - Getting You Started. - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Dec 16th, 2019 10:37 am
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Barry Miltenburg
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Hi all



Here is the back garden of the new house - what a mess!!  Mrs M will have her work cut out to get this looking pretty but I have no doubt that she will succeed.

The outbuilding on the far right of the picture is actually outside the kitchen door and will (we hope) be replaced by a small extension to house the laundry and an outside loo.  Behind that, and behind the three fence panels/trellis is a space which is 26ft x 16ft - spooky as that is exactly the size I wanted for the shed.  We may be able to have an extra few feet on the shed to create a workshop in the end and somewhere the motorcycle and lawnmower can live.  That also increases security/insulation for the layout.  I have permission to increase the length of the railway by a couple of feet as well if required.
:Happy :Happy

Nothing much will happen now as everything closes down over the Xmas holiday but it gives us a chance to take stock.  The local MRC has a test track so I can run some stuff and chat with fellow modellers/get my "fix" until work starts on the house.

I'll keep you posted.

Barry

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 Posted: Mon Dec 16th, 2019 12:04 pm
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Ed
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Just a small garden then Barry :lol:


Ed



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 Posted: Mon Dec 16th, 2019 12:37 pm
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Longchap
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Barry Miltenburg wrote: Hi all

Here is the back garden of the new house - what a mess!!  Mrs M will have her work cut out to get this looking pretty but I have no doubt that she will succeed.

The outbuilding on the far right of the picture is actually outside the kitchen door and will (we hope) be replaced by a small extension to house the laundry and an outside loo. 
:Happy :Happy

Barry

Crumbs, when we left Liverpool in '59, my grandparents still had their outside WC, in fact their only WC, then Dylan in the 60s said that times they are a changin and now in the 20s. you Barry are putting in an outside WC!

You just have to love nostalgia, goes with the steam trains!

I've just put in our 6th WC here, although the only outside one is original.

That looks a great railway home Barry, which I'm sure you and the Mrs will have it the way you like it before too long. My very best good wishes for a wonderful and trouble free refurb.

Bill



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 Posted: Mon Dec 16th, 2019 01:28 pm
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Petermac
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I'm pleased you've got some thinking/planning time Barry - it will allow you to realise that you've got things the wrong way round............... :roll:

Let Mrs M have the 26 x 16 space behind the trellis for her garden (easier for her to prep) and you roof in the rest for the railway ..............

Joking aside, it does look like a useful space and, once tidied up, will be a superb garden - I'll watch out for it in Ideal Homes magazine............ !!  :cheers




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 Posted: Mon Jan 20th, 2020 01:41 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Bill

I was just re-readng my post with a view to producing an update and realise that I said "outside loo" when I meant "downstairs loo". 
:thud

As far as updates go - well not a lot has happened whilst the country drags itself back to work in Janaury.  I am still waiting on builders, solicitors, estate agents (Realtors) and shed manufacturers to get back to me with either quotes, information or paperwork.

Something I have discovered is that the local MRC entire clubroom is actually smaller that my proposed layout.

:hmm

For the first time I am starting to appreciate the enormity of the job I have signed up for but that is more of an inspiration than an issue.  The Club has a test track around the walls on the upper floor that is 28 feet long.  I took a couple of locomotives over last week and ran them with 8 coach/28 wagons trains.  That gave me goosebumps because they looked awesome - even with bare baseboards and no scenery.  I found myself doing that schoolboy thing of putting your eye down at model track level as the train went past!!

On a side note, the clubroom is a former station house from the 1870's, recently refurbished for the club by our landlords Network Rail.  The main Southport-Liverpool line is right outside so we get a 3-car soundtrack every 15 minutes!!


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 Posted: Tue Jan 21st, 2020 01:31 pm
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Campaman
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For some bigger trains although not full size, Southport has a nice model engineering club a the top side of Victoria park, off Rotten Row.

Been there a few times on the Caravan club site next door.



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Andy
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 Posted: Wed Jan 22nd, 2020 02:23 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Andy

We share some members.  The bigger (live steam) scales seem to instill a more social element into the modelling - meeting up to play trains with a glass of wine and a hot dog seems alien to those us working in 4mm.

Shame!!!

Barry

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 Posted: Wed Jan 22nd, 2020 08:23 pm
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Hi Barry.  Replace the Wine and Hot dog, with tea and biscuits and the idea sounds much better, but , before you get carried away, remember that this is a forum and not a MRC. Best wishes Kevin 



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 Posted: Sun Feb 2nd, 2020 10:26 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Hello all

Just a quick update regarding the shed.  The suppliers mentioned that a big shed usually bumps into Planning Permission and I was asked to check that all was OK.

What I now discover is that they meant was Building Control - that is a set of rules (probably not unique to the UK and referred to as Building Code in the US I think) that certain buildings need to comply with.  Part A is structural, Part B is fire-related etc.  I am very familiar with Part P which is the electrical section.  The basic idea is that, by following Building Regulations, whatever you do does not carry a risk of death or injury or damage to persons or surroundings.

The local Inspector will be checking that my building, as it exceeds a floor area of 30sqMetres, complies - the main concern appears to be the fact that is built out of a combustible material i.e. wood.  To become compliant with Regs I need to treat it with a flame retardant paint or coating. I have found a company to supply such stuff and then certificate its use.  Total cost about £175.  Fabby!!

The latest big change has been to go back and split the shed in half - 28ft x 16ft for the railway and again a separate 16ft x 8ft workshop to be used as a store and "garage" area.  That makes my bit easier to seal, line, heat and secure so good news.

The process of buying the house drags on but with a bit of luck we will be in, all building work & decoration done and work in the shed started by Christmas.  The shed itself will be erected early on as we need to use it as a storehouse.

More meetings this week with architects, engineers and others so we inch closer each day.  Both the anticipated costs and my consumption of Scotch seem to be going up in equal proportion!!!

Barry

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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 12:39 am
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Colin W
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Barry Miltenburg wrote:
The latest big change has been to go back and split the shed in half - 28ft x 16ft for the railway and again a separate 16ft x 8ft workshop to be used as a store and "garage" area.  That makes my bit easier to seal, line, heat and secure so good news.


At the same time effortlessly redefining the words "half" and "bit" I think! :???:

28/36 = 78% by my reckoning and I know I'll have no joy asking SWMBO for a "bit" more room for W-H using your definition!

Colin




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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 01:23 am
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Barry Miltenburg
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Colin

Mrs M has very many talents but Maths comes some way down the list :twisted: :twisted:

Barry

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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 11:54 am
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Petermac
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Barry Miltenburg wrote: Colin

Mrs M has very many talents but Maths comes some way down the list :twisted: :twisted:

Barry

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Is it just Building Regs you'll need Barry or full planning ?  I'd guess it probably depends on whether or not they class the "shed" as a permanent fixture or "relocatable" …………………..

Here in France, we have an odd system in that anything over 20 sq m requires planning but under that, you're simply supposed to inform the Mayor about it.  Naturally, regardless of size, anything more than single story needs planning.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 02:03 pm
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28 x11.75 would have avoided the hassle. As would 27.5 x 12.

Nigel



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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 06:53 pm
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The Q
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A shed can be made of any material in the UK,  being wooden makes no difference. In most circumstances a temporary building (which could be just a tent) can only be on site without council permission for 28days.
The maximum size for any building regs exempt build is,
 30 square metres  floor area. 
3 metre high single pitched roof 
4metres high with two or more pitches. 

If made of flammable material,  it cannot be placed with 2 metres of your property boundary. ****
You can cover up to half your garden with shed. 

*****The most ignored law on buildings I know of,  most people's sheds are stuffed into a corner.  Councils ignore that,  unless someone complains. The bigger you build your shed the more likely someone will complain.. 

Of course if you live in a conservation area,  a national park or similar, all automatic permissions are off, you're stuffed. 

PS the Norfolk Broads are NOT a national  park. 



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 Posted: Mon Feb 3rd, 2020 08:50 pm
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Colin W
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There is another issue, certainly here in Oz but might be in UK as well, that with the advent of commercial satellite imagery, Local Councils have become significant customers. They may be watching you.

It's only a theory but it's not hard to imagine with modern computing power that changes made to blocks could be detected by comparing image recordings. If that all sounds far-fetched let me illustrate. We were looking for quotes for Solar Power on our roof. In my first inquiry, once they had our address they looked up the available imagery for our house. Since just a month before we'd had a major overhanging branch removed I pointed out that might not yet be shown. Unfazed the guy say, "oh yes, I can see that from comparing the last two shots!" "Big Brother" is here as the detail they have access to is scary, you should see the photos in their quote documentation, makes Google maps look like a Camera Obscura. 

A friend in the building trade told me Councils are using the technology to monitor changes on sites and in installed buildings, I suspect less for compliance than ensuring rate-able values are updated to maximise income!



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 Posted: Tue Feb 4th, 2020 02:03 pm
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BCDR
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Interesting comment from Colin. Our local equivalent of a council uses satellite imagery (the national geographic service is right next door), as does the county. One to check compliance with code, the other taxes.

Change the front door color? Nope. Change the style of window? Nope. Add on or large shed? A ton and months if not years of paperwork. And probably no, as all neighbors are automatically contacted for opinion which is voiced at a public meeting, video recorded and posted on their website. 

Move a couple counties over where houses sit in a couple of acres and nobody cares. Rifle range in the backyard? Sure. Triple bay two story garage? Sure. Paperwork to build in a couple of months. All improvements that means more rates.

Basements they can't see. I know one one modeler out in the boonies who has a 30 x 12 foot trailer home parked at the side of the house. No interior except for the kitchen. And the layout.

Nigel



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 Posted: Tue Feb 4th, 2020 11:22 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Hi all

As the shed is just a shed, is under 2.5m high and does not cover 50% of the garden, planning is not required - we have something called Permitted Development which basically says if you can tick some simple boxes, do what you want as long as its at least 1m from a boundary wall.

Building Regs/code is a whole box of rules regarding the quality of the building - the shed counts as a building (as opposed to a mobile phone mast or a bridge which are structures).

Part A deals with structure, B is Fire safety, C is Site Prep and Contaniments etc etc - there is a full list on the interweb if you need some bedtime reading.

Satisfying the criteria in all relevant areas is not a problem and the local Inspector is a guy with a good coating of common sense apparently so I am not foreseeing an issue.  It just needs an hour or two of work to pull a dosier together showing that each of the appropriate Building Reg elements has been considered and satisfied.  Given that I have a Design Manual running to some 50 pages already covering Vision, Infrastructure, Baseboards, Storage tracks, Control, Operation, Electrics and much more, this is nothing more than another chapter and given how slowly the house purchase is moving, it gives something to do in the evenings!!

Barry

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 Posted: Wed Feb 5th, 2020 04:23 am
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Colin W
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Re "...and given how slowly the house purchase is moving," I thought it was a done deal when you said you'd bought a house back in December. What with Fees, Stamp Duty paid etc. etc.



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 Posted: Wed Feb 5th, 2020 01:58 pm
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Hi Barry,

I would haves good look at your to be neighbor's back yards and see what they already have. Garden sheds, garages, examples and precedents already established. Open expanses with lawns, flower beds and vegetable plots that require sunlight, a patio that gets sunlight, hmm.  A 2.5 meter high by 8 meters long structure can cast quite a shadow.  Does the location affect light through windows next door? The right to light law is still in place in the UK, if your neighbors have been there 20+ years they have it. Right to light is not considered in planning applications. There are expert consultants on this.

Nigel

Edit. I see your RHS neighbor already has a large tiled structure. Tall hedges, fences, etc. I would still check. Nothing like a piece of paper with an expert opinion, cheaper than being sued.



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 Posted: Wed Feb 5th, 2020 04:11 pm
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Barry Miltenburg
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Hi Colin

We actually agreed to buy the house on the 13th December and last Friday, the vendors solicitors sent my solicitor the first communication!!!!!! 

The house is the asset of a Family Trust which, we were told, would speed things up.  God help us had the thing moved slowly!!

I am trying not to get stressed as I am liable to say something to someone that I would regret.  I just keep taking deep breaths.

Nigel - I am of the school that things are done right by the right people so I have a solicitor, architect (although I am deeply suspicious about them generally), Building Inspector contact and a builder who is very much in tune with the Council requirements.  I have spoken to both immediate neighbours about my plans.  The neighbours behind are 60 yards away.  I am taking as much advice as I can get because (a) I don't know it all and do not want guess/get it wrong and (b) I do not want  to have to dismantle the shed/railway once the project starts.  Fortunately, Mrs M has previous when it comes to garden design and one of the main benefits of the house was the south facing garden.  She is positioning the shed to maximise her wants and still meet the technical requirements.  It'll all be right on the night as they say!

Barry

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