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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 02:37 am
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Passed Driver
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Hi All.   I am purchasing kits quicker than than I am building them, mostly plastic, but I have an Etched Brass kit or two, one being a Semaphore Signal and one a Brakevan.  I purchased the brakevan as a precursor to a rake of LSWR carriages from Roxey Mouldings, thinking that if all goes well with the brakevan?  Then I could start on the carriages as there aren't any RTR models available. I have been considering either getting an engineers surface plate, but that is a serious bit of kit. Then I thought about "folding bars" or even using a smooth jaw vice, but everything seems "ott"? As for the posh etch mates et al, they seem a bit pricey. Two lengths of aluminium angle bolted together seems the best idea yet? As even the shorter carriages in OO are too long for a "single fold" operation with the posh etch mates. If anyone out there has experience of my ideas? Please leave an answer.  Kevin



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 05:52 am
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Kevin at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I suggest you have a look at this thread:

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10043&forum_id=62

I touch on a host of things from plastic to brass wagons and coaches.  You may not agree with everything I did and others may have even better ideas.

John



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 11:38 am
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Hi John.  Thank you for your reply. Very good nay, excellent work all round, I am not certain on how many LSWR carriages my Hornby M7 can manage, but I think two was a suggested maximum (a brake and a composite) unless I work on the Loco, something to do with the weight distribution? But I digress, back to the thread.Bending bars and 4mm carriages? or the posh Etch Mate? The bending bars that I have seen advertised look like 
"Two odd bits of steel bolted together or in some cases? they have Allen screws and of course a key, but are they machined or just " as the come, off the steel rack"? The LSWR carriages of the era seem to be shorter than modern carriages but, would still require either a one go fold or if you are careful? You may get away with two folds. But as I haven't tried this technique I am only guessing. Where even the largest "Etch Mate"only seems capable of much shorter lengths. Which as I said is why I went for a brakevan kit for starters. But I don't think my work could match the standard that you have set, sometimes I feel like giving up kits and "buying off the shelf" but that is defeatist talk.       All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 11:50 am
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Hi John.  More from me, I forgot to ask about your problem with the Roxey Moudings LSWR Carriages and having to add two washers to adjust the "Riding Height", and the size of washers that you used. And did you use bending bars pliers, or what? Maybe just a straight edge?   All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 05:27 pm
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Hi Kevin,

Also see  http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=14715&forum_id=19

You don't actually need expensive bits of kit for bending, but it's good to practice with an easy and cheaper kit before something more complex and expensive (or even bend some thin brass sheet with scribed lines on it). 

Bill



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 07:36 pm
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Passed Driver wrote: Hi John.  More from me, I forgot to ask about your problem with the Roxey Moudings LSWR Carriages and having to add two washers to adjust the "Riding Height", and the size of washers that you used. And did you use bending bars pliers, or what? Maybe just a straight edge?   All the best. Kevin
Kevin they were just standard washers used as shims, a common practice.  (I have collected a motley assortment of bits and bobs over the years.)  Size dictated by the bolt used as a pivot.  As Bill says, you don't really need fancy or expensive kit.  In post 2 of Bills link, I show my method of bending coach flanges on LSWR coaches.  Two C clamps and a stiff, straight piece of steel, in this case a file with a dead edge.

If you want metal (strip, washers, nuts, bolt et al)  then I recommend you have a look at Eileens Emporium:

https://eileensemporium.com/

BTW, do you think my first attempt to build a brass kit went well?   Uh uh, a disaster :brickwall, but we learn.

John



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 07:48 pm
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Hi Bill.  Thank you for your reply, unfortunately I don't have a trunk like that. My main concern is the length of the Carriage against any bought device ? Or any homemade/cobbled together contraption for a better word .But which ever way I go(providvng) that it is I do:???: a good job then there is the painting and lining issue?
Anyhow I will press ahead.  All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 11:09 pm
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Hi Kevin,

The method outlined by John avoids the need for commercial benders and also bends long coach sides . . . ''In post 2 of Bills link, I show my method of bending coach flanges on LSWR coaches.  Two C clamps and a stiff, straight piece of steel, in this case a file with a dead edge.'' Nigel (BCDR) also uses the same method with his engineers' squares. 

No brainer, job done!

:)



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 11:42 pm
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Rob Pulham
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Hi Kevin,
As long as you use either a stanley knife or a triangular file to deepen the half etched line until a witness mark shows on the face side you should be able to clamp a couple of steel rules together or grip them in a vice and make the bend successfully without much effort.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 23rd, 2017 11:53 pm
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Agree Rob, that should work if you are VERY careful.  These LSWR etched sides are very thin and fragile because the beading is half etched into them.  They are easy to cockle and if you do that you are toast.

John



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 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 12:46 am
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Hi John.   Thank you for your reply, you might just have "weighed the scales" in favour of the expensive option?Until now the only cockle that I had heard of , were the ones you eat, I have just looked at the Dictinary definition.
Bearing in mind the price and fragility of the Roxey mouldings kits , I would rather investigate(the reason for the existence of this thread) the most suitable "Etch Mate" or "Hold and Fold" or whatever you name them? Then I would rather purchase the most expensive bit of kit available , within reason i.e. Not from the likes of gaugemaster, than
 "Cockle Up" a brand new Roxey mouldings kit.    Kevin



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 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 02:39 am
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Hi Rob.  Thank you for your reply, but after reading how fine and fragile John said the Roxey mouldings kits are.I could easily spoil more kits than I make, so I am torn here, either go for the posh option or give up the idea.
All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 05:15 am
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Hi Kevin,

Get some brass sheet (5 thou' and 10 thou') and a tungsten scribe (or a dart) and start scoring and bending. The only way to do it is proficiently to develop some experience. Those expensive "folding aids" aren't really meant for things like carriage sides, which can be up to 12" long in OO and 18"-24" long in O (and often in 18 thou' brass or nickel silver). For that you need a straight edge and clamps and an engineer's square. And a small hammer to take out any kinks.

I never score pre-existing half-etches, which in the case of a 5 thou' etch are 2.5 thou' thick (should be thin I suppose). The trick is to put the edge of the bar/rule at the edge of the etch, not in the middle. If you want razor sharp edges then cut through and solder the pieces together using right-angle brass strip inside (and different solder melt temperatures).

Nigel



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 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 11:02 am
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Hi Nigel Thank you for your reply, I have found one Brass Sheet supplier, "Gas Cupboard Models"", the next day postage costs more than product ( the 2 nd class isn't much cheaper). The kit that I have already, a " Hurst Nelson Brakevan", has on the instruction sheet a note about the need to extend some of the etches because of an error?
That kit does have some very small and fragile parts, which is another reason for "Holding Back"on the build,
these parts include running board/ step brackets etc, which going against your better judgement, may make the purchase of one of the "Posh" folding gadgets worthwhile ??:oops: . But would mean using your proven methods for folding the carriage sides and other long components. All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Tue Jan 24th, 2017 09:07 pm
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Hi Kevin,

Brass sheet, half hard, £3.00-4.00 a sheet depending on the size from Eileens Emporium.

The etch needs "extending"? Goof-up, measure once, get it wrong. What bits need extending? How? I would send it back and demand a refund. No excuse. Is this an RT Models Kit? If so for that price they should get it right first time.

It doesn't look like a starter kit, there are fiddly bits such as the the ducket and the stanchions for the foot plates. Plus the buffer  look to be a white metal casing, for that you need a temperature controlled iron capable of at least 230° and preferably 200°. Is the roof already curved? If not you need some rollers.

Small folds you can do with your fingers or smooth faced pliers, just as accurate as the gadgets. Just check the angle with the engineers square.

Nigel



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 Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2017 12:44 am
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Hi Kevin,
I hadn't realised that the sheets were half etched. In terms of a hold and fold I have the 5" version that I bought from the US in about 2008 for £50

It's helped with a fair few etched kit's since then and I wouldn't be without it. I also have a pair of 20" bending bars but I only use them for very long folds (about twice a year...).

If you plan on doing a few etched kit's then some good tools are a worthwhile investment. 



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 Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2017 04:41 am
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Photo etch bend-it - nearer $60-$80 depending on the size (4", 8"). The 2" one is designed for those fine etches you find in high-end 1:500 model ship kits (and is around $30).

Micro-Mark over here do a useful bender for up to 6.5" for $50.00. Longer if a steel ruler is used. Couple of C clamps and a straight edge is a lot cheaper for the occasional kit (most of use I suspect).

The investment in tools once you start is significant.

Nigel




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 Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2017 10:22 am
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Hi Nigel. Thank you for your reply.I agree with you entirely, when I purchased my first ( and only ) etched kit, the next item on my shopping list was a combination square, but, there is a matter of the hard surface, I do have a Black and Decker workmate and the 
"G Clamps" that I require, But I am uncertain whether or not that is an adequate surface to work on? But if it works for you okay then it must de good enough.  All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2017 10:35 am
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Hi Rob thank you for your reply.That was my point, if I modelled in N gauge, God forbid? The posh bend and fold type tool would be excellent, but, with OO I think one would have to be careful to avoid getting a kink/ s in the Etch, and the longer bars are essential
All the best. Kevin



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 Posted: Wed Jan 25th, 2017 06:30 pm
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Hi Kevin,

More than I've got. You really do need a flat and hard surface for getting the frame level and square. I prefer a polished granite surface (floor tile) to a glass one. Most of the time I hold the etch down with one hand and the steel ruler, bend up with a heavy duty metal blade. Small etches I just use the engineers square or a 3-2-1 block and a blade. There are times when you just have to user the Mk1 pinkies. A lot of the aggravation goes away if the kit was well designed. Which unfortunately is often not the case (especially with older ones).

Nigel



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