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theflyingspanner
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hello i am new to this forum so please bare with me as i may be in the wrong place

does any one know how to speed profile and brake test with train controller i have the gold version

reason i ask is my train dont stop at the same point with any of the stop markers they are somtimes ok and most times 6 to 8 inches out
can any one help please

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Hi Alan,i can't help you with your question but i would also introduce yourself in the new members section.

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Hi Alan

I'll have to copy and paste the process from my forum, so it could take a little while.  Bear with me.

John Dew can probably do it out of his head.  If he's along sooner than I can get to it.

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Now for the Brake compensation.



This time I selected "Test of the brake compensation with occupancy sensors" from the drop down menu.  This greys out the Run-Out and the Pause and leaves the Length still showing the length of the Profile block.

 CHANGE THIS TO SHOW THE DISTANCE YOU WANT FOR THE BRAKE TEST. THIS SHOULD GENERALLY BE THE RAMP DISTANCE THAT YOU TYPICALLY USE FOR THE LOCO THAT IS BEING PROFILED/TESTED

Note: When you have finished testing remember to change the length back to the block length......failure to do this will give "unexpected results" next time you profile (JD)

The default Brake compensation defaults to 0. John Dew: It is not uncommon for a loco to stop on the test marker without having to adjust the brake compensation......however since V8 a value of 0 for Brake Compensation provokes an error message in Dr Railroad  To avoid this its better to enter a nominal value of 1.  The bigger the number the shorter stopping distance.

Very occasionally the loco will stop short of the test marker with the Brake Compensation set at 0. The work around is to reduce the contact spot distance.....less than ideal but it effective nevertheless

"Internal" shows a number, and then whether the loco is going forward or backwards.

Use this number to get a fine adjustment of the actual speed, as when the loco starts off it will default to a different speed.  For example, an internal number of 120 will result in at track speed of 9 km/h, while the next internal (160), will result in 12 km/h.

I'm using 10 km/h, so the internal will be 120 (9 km/h), which is the closest.

I put an orange marker at the beginning of the middle Profiling Block, and a yellow one 30 cm along from it.  Then I moved the blue throttle slider until it had preset the speed in the box on the right to 10 s.km/h.



Once you have moved the blue slider, the Start button becomes active and the loco moves along the Run-Out track.  Once it enters the middle Block, it slows down and stops at the yellow marker.  Increasing the Brake Compensation makes it stop shorter and decreasing it makes it stop longer.

The brake compensation is only truly effective at the speed and distance used in the test so it is important to enter a speed and distance that will most typically be used by that loco on the layout



Thanks to John for his editing.

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It was easier to find than I expected.  :lol:

I hope that helps, Alan.

theflyingspanner
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thanks Max for all the help you have put there for me

but thats exactly how i do my profiling and i still have the problem
i wonder if its something to do with the sensors

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OK  Then can you describe how your Blocks are detected, Alan?

theflyingspanner
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i use the digtrax system
i have a db150 6 bdl168's and a pm42 all wired for home wiring all the sensors work and light up when occupied so i know they all work
thanks Alan

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I'm not much use to you as I have all Lenz right through.  It looks OK though.

We need to find someone with Digitrax, so maybe ask your question on the RR&Co forum, as I don't think anyone here has it.

The other thing you can do is .zip your file and attach it to a reply here.

When you do, I'll ping John Dew.  He can download it and have a look at it on his simulator.

You could also attach it to your question on the RR&Co forum.

theflyingspanner
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MY LAY OUT
THE PROFILING TRACK IS WHERE THE GREEN LINE IS BLOCK IN1

Attachment: NEW SEAHAM STATION JUNE 12TH 2016.yrrg (Downloaded 5 times)

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Hi Alan,if possible put any photos in the gallery as attachments take up much needed bandwidth.

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Kevin

I am looking at your file right now.........which are the most troublesome locos please?

Last edited on Wed Jun 15th, 2016 11:32 pm by John Dew

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Hi Kevin

When profiling using block Ini 1  which is the start block and which is the run off block?

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I think there may be issues with your profiling track but more importantly I think your problems could be related to the way you are setting up stop and brake markers within blocks.

Could you tell me the name of just one schedule where the loco doesnt stop as intended and I will run it here with the simulator

If you can tell me the loco(s) you use and the average error distance ( for example "stops about 6" short") that would be a big help

Regards


John

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the block before the green line and before in 1
if you open up a speed profile it will say new start new middle and new end
the sensor for the start is in the block before in 1 the middle and end is in (in 1)
all the blocks are joined on the layout they just look apart on the diagram switchboard

thanks Alan

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John Dew wrote: Kevin

I am looking at your file right now.........which are the most troublesome locos please?


You can ignore this.....I dashed it off when you were on line

theflyingspanner
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basically all the stop markers don't stop any trains where they are suppose to sometime they do and sometimes they don't thats my problem that i posted

i can do a run and the loco will stop at the stop marker and the next time it may be 6 inches either way
i need the to stop at the markers for my kadee s to uncouple so 1 inch either way would be great but 6 inches out is no good
its doing my head in now
thanks for taking the time to have a look at my problem
thanks alan

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theflyingspanner wrote: the block before the green line and before in 1
if you open up a speed profile it will say new start new middle and new end
the sensor for the start is in the block before in 1 the middle and end is in (in 1)
all the blocks are joined on the layout they just look apart on the diagram switchboard

thanks Alan


My apologies for calling you Kevin:oops:

It seems to me that block In 1 is separated by turnouts at both ends?

This is a quote from Page 124 of the manual

There must not be any “dead gap” between the occupancy sections. That means the track sections must be located close together. Track section “Centre” must begin where the other track sections end and vice versa.

Neither point is detected so there are "dead gaps' between the start block and profile block and run off block

Furthermore the route appears to be curved......ideally all three blocks should be in a straight line.

The gap between the start block and in1 must have a big impact on brake compensation


 



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theflyingspanner wrote: basically all the stop markers don't stop any trains where they are suppose to sometime they do and sometimes they don't thats my problem that i posted

i can do a run and the loco will stop at the stop marker and the next time it may be 6 inches either way
i need the to stop at the markers for my kadee s to uncouple so 1 inch either way would be great but 6 inches out is no good
its doing my head in now
thanks for taking the time to have a look at my problem
thanks alan


I do a lot of uncoupling on my layout with Kadee magnets so I do understand the problem

I just wanted a specific schedule so I could demonstrate to you what you are doing wrong with stop markers

Could I use 40 Blue Pullman out as an example?

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the blue pullman is a passenger train any of the class 66 or37 or a shunter do the uncoupling and haul the tankers
or use what ever you like really

John Dew
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Hi Alan

I have to go out now......there is an 8 hour time difference:cry:

I will post something later.....you will be able to read it at breakfast:lol:

theflyingspanner
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cheers mate
thanks for taking time to look at it for me
Thanks Alan

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all the profiling sensors are one after the other on the layout there are no gaps at all
thanks Alan

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theflyingspanner wrote: all the profiling sensors are one after the other on the layout there are no gaps at all
thanks Alan

How can that be when Point 100 lies between your start block Inner 2 (CI 2/03) and your profile block In 1 (CI 2/02  and CI 2/01)

I dont understand the purpose of two CIs in the profile block.

Is the section controlled by CI 2/02 where the loco is profiled and is the section controlled by CI 2/101 the run off block?

Like some of the guys on the R&R forum I am confused about the way your profile track is set up

Most profile tracks have a simple set up as per the manual......consisting of three blocks, each with a single occupancy detector (CI) , in a straight line with no intervening points.


             FINISH   CI 3                            PROFILE CI  2                       START CI 1


Train Controller is complex enough.....each time one varies from the manual it makes troubleshooting that much more difficult.


 I have written separately about stop markers


Regards                                           

                                                  













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Hi Alan

Even if your profiling is perfect you will never get accurate stopping unless you have a clear understanding of how TC operates Stop and Brake Markers.

Lets say we have a Loco entering a block at 30 mph with a stop marker set at 48" and a Brake Marker with a distance of 36" and a ramp of 12"

The moment the loco is detected entering the block, TC uses the speed of the loco to calculate when it will have traveled 36". it then progressively reduces the speed to the crawl or threshold speed set up in profiling and when it calculates a further 12" has been reached it stops the train

If we change the brake marker ramp to 10" then everything happens as above except that after 10" of deceleration the train will continue at crawl speed for a further 2"

It must be easier to calculate distance travelled at a constant speed than when the speed is being progressively reduced.........so the longer the ramp the less accurate the calculation

Secondly crawling can be very unpredictable so the distance between (Distance+Ramp) and Stop Marker should be kept to a minimum.......the maximum I ever allow is 1" and I rarely do that

A picture is worth a thousand words





There is an awful lot of stop marker each assigned to a train group I think but only one brake marker with a 15" ramp

Lets take two extreme examples

Loco 20 Blue is assigned to the 15"  Stop Marker......on entering the block the brake marker will be activated after it has traveled 3" it will decelerate but only for 12" and then stop before it reaches crawl speed

Rail Freight is assigned the 26" stop marker.....it will travel 3" at block entry speed then decelerate for 15" and then crawl for 8"

The lesson here is that if you want a number of different stop markers each should have a brake marker with distance + ramp matching the stop distance........TC needs to know which set to activate so both stop and brake marker should have the same restriction......either train or schedule.

Here is a block from Granby to show this





Hope this helps.......sorry its so long winded but its the nuts and bolts of stopping accurately




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i have removed all the multiple brake marker and started again


i notice in you picture you have a stop maker of 68 then a brake marker with a ramp 0f 6 and a distance of 62


on mine have the distance shorter than the ramp i.e.

stop marker of 20 then a brake marker with a ramp of 18 and a distance of 2

which is the correct way
i have found that my way it stops closest to the brake marker

if i change the brake marker to a ramp of 2 and the distance of 18 it does not stop near the brake marker

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theflyingspanner wrote: i have removed all the multiple brake marker and started again

There is nothing wrong with multiple stop markers as such.....they just have to have precise conditions and should each be associated with a brake marker


i notice in you picture you have a stop maker of 68 then a brake marker with a ramp 0f 6 and a distance of 62
on mine have the distance shorter than the ramp i.e.

stop marker of 20 then a brake marker with a ramp of 18 and a distance of 2

which is the correct way
i have found that my way it stops closest to the brake marker

Obviously I think mine is the correct way:lol: and I tried to explain why in my reply.

It is generally recognised that the most accurate stopping is achieved by using the same speed and ramp distance that you used in your brake test.....you cant do that with your system because blocks vary in length

 Although maybe you should check on the RR&Co forum rather than just accept what I do.




if i change the brake marker to a ramp of 2 and the distance of 18 it does not stop near the brake marker

I assume you mean the stop marker? The brake marker comes on after 18"





Alan, you have quite a complex layout with a lot of schedules..........I was very impressed when I ran the Blue Pullman out sequence:thumbs........... I have been through exactly the same phases as you when you get really frustrated at some insoluble glitch...........I have found the best solution is to try and strip everything back to the fundamentals

It would be best if we focussed on one loco and one schedule and got that to stop 9 times out of ten over the magnet......it would be really helpful if you would tell me the loco and schedule rather than have me pick one at random.

I , or rather Mrs D :roll:, have a number of non railway events planned this week end  so I may not be able to always respond right away

Best Wishes

John


 

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done what you said removed all my sensor wiring what a nightmare and I'm starting from fresh
i noticed that my mistake is that my end part of the blocks the sense part was too long so i will now have block lets sat 40 inches long with 3 sensors in at the start of the block the sensor will be 5 inches long middle 30 inches long then at the end 5 inches
in the block i have a brake marker for 35 inches and a 5 inch brake marker i have done a test with all my locos and everyone stops in the correct place every time

so look like i am busy for e few weeks putting all the seniors back into the correct places
thanks for all your help
ill put up a picture when its all working

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theflyingspanner wrote: done what you said removed all my sensor wiring what a nightmare and I'm starting from fresh
i noticed that my mistake is that my end part of the blocks the sense part was too long so i will now have block lets sat 40 inches long with 3 sensors in at the start of the block the sensor will be 5 inches long middle 30 inches long then at the end 5 inches
in the block i have a brake marker for 35 inches and a 5 inch brake marker i have done a test with all my locos and everyone stops in the correct place every time

so look like i am busy for e few weeks putting all the seniors back into the correct places
thanks for all your help
ill put up a picture when its all working


I dont understand........which block has three occupancy detectors?

Regards

John

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i think you have misunderstood me
i am putting new blocks in with 3 sensor in for a train that will run in both directions .
i will cut the track into 3 lengths in that block and make both the ends of the have short pieces of track 5 Inches at each end with the brake markers in.
the middle sensor will be the longest sensor for the brake ramp
the block will look like this

For a bi-directional block i use 3 sensors:

>brake ramp 35" >Stop Marker 5"
||--5"--||--------30"-------||--5"--||
< 5"stop marker < 35" brake marker




and



Direction Of Travel --->


>35"Brake ramp >5"stop marker
||--------------35"------------||--5"--|
so the so as the train hits the stop maker it will stop

i have tested this and all the trains stop over the kadee magnet perfect
i will post a picture when finished

Last edited on Sun Jun 19th, 2016 11:45 am by theflyingspanner

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Well that's definitely belt and braces:lol:

I look forward to seeing the pictures

Regards


                 

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