Video Archive         Recent Topics      
YMR logo

You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > The Prototype. > Members Prototype Photographs. > Dominion of Canada A4 4489 To bottom of page
                 

 Moderated by: Spurno Page:    1  2  Next Page Last Page  
Start New Topic Reply Printer Friendly

Dominion of Canada A4 4489 - Members Prototype Photographs. - The Prototype. - Your Model Railway Club
AuthorPost
 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2015 06:25 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 1st post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I was at Exporail, the Canadian Railway Museum, in St. Constance, QC, last Saturday. A4 Dominion of Canada 4489 was in the main exhibition building after the trip to the UK and the repaint to blue/black last year. Some photographs below.









Last but one is the tender corridor. I can only get down it sideways and at a crouch.

Last one is the underneath looking forward, showing the cranked middle axle and crank balances. The middle cylinder connecting rod has been removed (it was lying in the tender, was the middle cylinder seized when it was moved?), I never realized that all three cylinders drove the middle axle. The bearings here were shot after the world speed record attempt. BR limited the A4 to 100 mph to avoid such mishaps.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2015 10:59 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 2nd post
Marty
Enjoying the Journey


Joined: Sun Oct 14th, 2007
Location: Perth, Western Australia, Australia
Posts: 5993
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Great photos Nigel, especially of the tender corridor, never seen a photo of one before. My goodness, isn't she shiny!
Marty



____________________
Marty
N Gauge, GWR West Wales
Newcastle Emlyn Layout.
Newcastle Emlyn Station is "Under construction"
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2015 01:24 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 3rd post
Silver Fox
Deceased Member


Joined: Sun Mar 23rd, 2014
Location: Ingleby Barwick, Stockton-on-tees, United Kingdom
Posts: 586
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

good pics, and as Marty said the tender corridor brill,thanks.

Marty they were shiny till Br took over then it was down hill all the way,,,
:thumbs;-):cool:
Owen



____________________
web-cam http://82.2.74.174:8081
if the lights are off no cam
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2015 02:08 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 4th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16863
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I hope your museum appreciates what Shildon did for her and will look after her this time. 

She was in a very sorry state when she arrived at Shildon:




____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 26th, 2015 10:09 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 5th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Petermac wrote: I hope your museum appreciates what Shildon did for her and will look after her this time. 

She was in a very sorry state when she arrived at Shildon:

:mutleyThat's pretty much the condition it was in when BR sent it to Canada, including I believe the dent on the front. There is a gang of enthusiasts over here who periodically gave it a clean and kept it looking decent (and in the original BR condition, a decision was made not to repair and repaint it in BR green). Most of the muck is due to the transport from Montréal to Halifax and the trans-Atlantic voyage in the middle of winter. Check out "Steam" magazine for some real "before" photo's (which I took for them).

It's a pity Sheldon gave it the paint job they did - this is how they ran in the 1960's. Clear case of "rose-colored glasses" syndrome. "The Grand Finale of British Steam" (2013, pages 27-28) shows Merlin (60027) at Perth in 1965 with just as many dings, dents, patches and even more muck than DofC ("The filthiest A4 ever seen" opined the late Paul Riley). Even after a "clean" by an unofficial gang of cleaners who would invade the shed and give the engines a going over with paraffin and rags (no BR cleaners on shed by then) to take photographs the next day it didn't look much better!

One thing Shildon did was to remove the BR speedometer with the 100 mph warning from the cab in order to back-date it - I wonder where that went? It's a quick cosmetic paint job for a photo-op, the underneath has not been touched. If you look carefully you can see the paint dribbles from the spokes on the inside of the flanges, and the pitting on the front pony beam that was left as is.

Now it's sat in the main hall of the museum looking very much out of place next to the Royal Hudson steam engine and the CPR/CN diesels on the other side. It's occupying track space that other locomotives in storage need. It's historical relevance to Canada is difficult to discern, apart from the name. Bit like sending Kolhapur to India. "Now, what do we do with it?". Apart from the local British railway modelers who are A4 enthusiasts (far and few, far and few.....) nobody is interested in it. The young 'uns excepted, who race through the tender without a glance at the engine.

There is a "Terrier" in storage that is also an orphan in need of a home. I wouldn't mind, but my taxes are supporting all of this.

Nigel




____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2015 02:14 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 6th post
Silver Fox
Deceased Member


Joined: Sun Mar 23rd, 2014
Location: Ingleby Barwick, Stockton-on-tees, United Kingdom
Posts: 586
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Well Nogel if that is the case why not donate it back to our national museum? I am sure they would be only too pleased to have it in their collection
:thumbs;-):cool:
Owen



____________________
web-cam http://82.2.74.174:8081
if the lights are off no cam
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Fri Nov 27th, 2015 04:34 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 7th post
Folkwizard
Full Member


Joined: Sun Sep 28th, 2014
Location: Basingstoke,Hants, United Kingdom
Posts: 185
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Silver Fox wrote: Well Nogel if that is the case why not donate it back to our national museum? I am sure they would be only too pleased to have it in their collection
:thumbs;-):cool:
Owen

I'm sure also that she would be welcome here back home. If the National Collection really wanted her,then a request for public donations would surely help with the costs involved.



____________________
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not sure.
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2015 12:44 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 8th post
wahiba
Full Member


Joined: Mon Jan 14th, 2013
Location: Keighley, United Kingdom
Posts: 267
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Many, many years ago I remembered being hauled from Kings Cross to Newcastle by this loco. I remember as I was taken up front to admire the bell. Amazing what one remembers from 60 years ago!



____________________
freelance model railways and tramways
http://www.picsntech.co.uk/index_modrail.html
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sat Nov 28th, 2015 08:08 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 9th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Long and complicated story as to why it ended up over here and not at the scrapyard (the dismantling process for spare parts prior to scrapping had already started). I've asked those who know for the gory details. Basically a gift from BR on the centennial anniversary of Canada. Probably one of those "it seemed a good idea at the time" without consideration about who was going to pay for a decent restoration. Low priority for restoration (cosmetic), as the yard at the museum has a large number of long-term Canadian candidates for restoration ahead of DofC. The political environment here has also changed significantly since it came. Canada ceased to a Dominion a long time ago (1982). Shares the Queen and the Commonwealth with the UK, that's it.

DoC has zero significance for Canadian railroad enthusiasts, the number of British Railway enthusiasts in Canada is not  that many, especially in the Montréal area (probably less than 20, more like 10), and I am aware of only one local LNER enthusiast. Lot more in Ontario and BC.

Whether it should even be at the museum in Québec is a moot point. Personally I think it should be back in the UK as it's an anachronism. Unlike several other engines from the UK it never ran over here and it's chances of every running again on main lines are zero. I'm sure a large enough offer would see it back in the UK given the museum's current waiting list.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Nov 30th, 2015 08:32 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 10th post
Campaman
Full Member


Joined: Sun Jan 1st, 2012
Location: Market Harborough, United Kingdom
Posts: 663
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I thought I read at the time of the great gathering that offers were made for it but refused by the museum, could be wrong, and it could have been the American one.



____________________
Cheers

Andy
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Dec 6th, 2015 09:59 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 11th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Couldn't resist the following anecdote, given the speedy attributes of the A4 class:

1906, Lady of Lyon 4-6-0 Saint class, Collett (then Assistant Manager, Locomotive Works) and other senior works managers on the footplate, H.J. Robinson driver, running-in turn between Swindon and Stoke Gifford on the 1 in 300 gradient. Collett in 1932 admitted to 120 mph, as does the driver. Timing by the signalmen in the signal boxes at Hullavington and Little Somerford indicated closer to 135 mph. Documented in Tuplin in 1971 and the Railway Magazine in 1932. No speedometer of course (installation started in 1937 in Stars and Saints), stop-watch timing between marker posts was the accepted method. No mention of any carriages, so probably a light engine turn. If not, the carriages (in all likelihood Dean clerestory designs) must have been bouncing around. 

Churchward was away from Swindon that day, looks like the boys were playing hooky and having some fun. All of this from a brand-new locomotive with tight bearings and piston rings and no fancy aerodynamic bodywork (straight frames at the front at this date). And only 2 cylinders. Bit risky unless somebody had worked out at what speed the driving wheels would lift. It looks like they got the balance weights on the driving wheels spot on. If not, at this speed they would be bouncing up and down 8 times a second.

Churchward (and later Collett) designed GWR 4-6-0 passenger locomotives to cruise at 80-90 mph, although a fair number of Stars, Castles and Kings would reach 100 mph on a regular basis on the Cheltenham Flyer between Swindon and London. All well documented by the enthusiasts of the day (O.S. Nock in particular), especially in the 1930's when timings on many trains were accelerated from the somewhat leisurely schedules.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Sun Dec 6th, 2015 11:01 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 12th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16863
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

You're just clutching at straws Nigel - everyone who knows anything about locomotives knows that Gresley's "Streaks" were the B all and end all of steam locomotives.

The other engineers were so in awe of them that they decided to go down the smelly diesel route ................:cheers:cheers:pedal:pedal



____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Dec 7th, 2015 01:54 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 13th post
g0ibi
Full Member


Joined: Sun Dec 28th, 2014
Location: Newark On Trent, United Kingdom
Posts: 1336
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

A4 Streaks rule and thanks to Mallard always will!!

Ron (Born next to the ECML!)



____________________
Proper Preparation makes for Perfect Performance!!

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=13331&forum_id=21
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Dec 7th, 2015 02:38 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 14th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16863
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

g0ibi wrote: A4 Streaks rule and thanks to Mallard always will!!

Ron (Born next to the ECML!)


:doublethumb:doublethumb:doublethumb:doublethumb



____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Mon Dec 7th, 2015 02:35 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 15th post
Silver Fox
Deceased Member


Joined: Sun Mar 23rd, 2014
Location: Ingleby Barwick, Stockton-on-tees, United Kingdom
Posts: 586
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Petermac wrote: g0ibi wrote: A4 Streaks rule and thanks to Mallard always will!!

Ron (Born next to the ECML!)


:doublethumb:doublethumb:doublethumb:doublethumb
AHMEN to that :Happy:Happy:Happy
:thumbs;-):cool:
OWEN



____________________
web-cam http://82.2.74.174:8081
if the lights are off no cam
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Dec 8th, 2015 03:44 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 16th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

No bias here then.........although do I hear the sound of axes to the grindstone?:lol:

The evidence for both Mallard and the Borsig streamlined Hudson 05 002 seems to indicate both managed 125 mph, Mallard on a hill (1:240) and 05 002 almost on the level (1:1000). I wouldn't call that a level playing field. Mallard managed 126 mph according to the dynamometer car readout for all of 60 yards ("momentary" is the term). Apparently not the first time the LNER dynamometer car had been known to give erroneous blips. Both Gresley and CJ Allen seemed to support 125 mph as the maximum.

The Milwaukee Road Hiawatha's 4-4-2 Atlantic's and 4-6-4 Hudson's had schedules in the mid-1930's that called for continuous regular running of the trains at speeds of 100+ mph with 8 (later 9) passenger cars on the 400 mile trip from Chicago to St. Paul, with maximum speeds around 120 mph on the level. Did they reach 125+ mph? Probably, there was certainly sufficient power available, steaming was not an issue, the track was meant for high-speed running and both the engine and passenger cars were suitably streamlined.

The failure of that mid-axle big-end at the end of Mallard's run is a clear indication that it was never designed for that speed. Big-end failures were common (to all the A series), and a "stink bomb" of aniseed oil was placed inside the big end of Mallard that would be released if overheated. BR limited the A4 class to a maximum of 100 mph with probable good reason, and the drivers felt that 80 mph was the real cruising speed given the steaming capacity and manual stoking. 05-002 and the Hiawatha's seemed to have no issues with 100+ mph running for prolonged periods on a daily basis. These engines were significantly ahead of Mallard when it came to the critical areas of grate area (68 and 96.5 square feet for the Atlantic's and Hudson's respectively vs 41.25 square feet for Mallard) and boiler pressure (300 psi vs 250). The grate area and boiler pressure for 05 002 were also greater than Mallard (50.5 square feet and 290 psi). The Milwaukee Road Atlantic's were oil-fired, the Hudson's were coal fired with mechanical stokers.

That Mallard managed 125 mph or thereabout given the limitations imposed by the gauge and design is perhaps the most significant achievement.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Dec 9th, 2015 02:01 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 17th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 3173
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Petermac wrote: You're just clutching at straws Nigel - everyone who knows anything about locomotives knows that Gresley's "Streaks" were the B all and end all of steam locomotives.

The other engineers were so in awe of them that they decided to go down the smelly diesel route ................:cheers:cheers:pedal:pedal
 


:mutley:mutley:mutleyGresley's A4's (and the A1, A3 and V2) weak link.


The inherent problem with the big-end on that third axle was not the bearing per se (although lubrication was an issue, as well as high temperatures due to a lack of proper ventilation from that stream-lined body) but Gresley's conjugated valve mechanism. That long conjugated lever "whipped" (bent) at high speed, compounded by the expansion of the valve rod when exposed to steam. The result was that the middle cylinder had a longer cut-off and disproportionate (higher) power compared to the outside cylinders. Enhanced wear of the big end bearings was the result. Not helped by the outside pistons driving the same axle and creating additional stress on the internal bearing (the other weak link).

This wear could be extremely rapid at high speed, especially with steam being shut-off to the cylinder (as happened). Tolerances were tight, the increased wear in the bearing would also result in the ends of the middle cylinder being knocked off by the piston. And they were planning on taking this set-up to 135+ mph when Mallard's big end went before 125 mph was reached? (Remember those blips on the dynomometer??).

These issues were addressed in typical B engineering fashion (Bodgit) fashion by putting a liner in the cylinder with a smaller diameter piston and reducing it's power. And using a proper (GWR design) big end with decent lubrication.

Thompson got fed up with all of this and did what Gresley should have done in the first place - used 3 sets of Walschaerts valve gear (as well as going back to 2 cylinders). It was only after significant work that the conjugated valve gear alignment issue was resolved. Other companies around the world who tried Gresley's conjugated valve gear ended up doing some serious modifications or simply replaced it with something more reliable.

For those wondering, an aniseed oil "stink bomb" is correct - one whiff of this when the white metal went and the driver knew that big end was toast and a seizure was imminent.

No wonder diesels rule the roost.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Dec 9th, 2015 02:18 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 18th post
Spurno
Owner/Webmaster.


Joined: Tue Aug 14th, 2012
Location: Torquay, United Kingdom
Posts: 4147
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I like the bit about the GWR. :mutley



____________________
Regards

Alan


Born beside the mighty GWR.
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Dec 9th, 2015 02:51 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 19th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16863
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Spurno wrote: I like the bit about the GWR. :mutley

You would Alan - your part of the country is very small with just strawberries and clotted cream for traffic - not like the big bits up north where our railways did proper men's work ........................:cheers   You even painted your locos green so they didn't disturb the cows clotting the cream and then put silly little shiney things on top otherwise you wouldn't know whether it was a locomotive or a grass field.  Up north, they were black to match the "dark satanic mills" of the power house of Britain ..................;-)

Whipping conjugal gears or not Nigel, they were powerful, fast and beautiful ............:cool wink



____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Dec 9th, 2015 03:06 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 20th post
Spurno
Owner/Webmaster.


Joined: Tue Aug 14th, 2012
Location: Torquay, United Kingdom
Posts: 4147
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Ouch!!!!!  :mutley:mutley:mutley



____________________
Regards

Alan


Born beside the mighty GWR.
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

This is topic ID = 13983     Current time is 05:21 am Page:    1  2  Next Page Last Page    
You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > The Prototype. > Members Prototype Photographs. > Dominion of Canada A4 4489
You can type a quick reply to this topic here. Click in the box below to begin.

Or to reply to an individual post, or to include images, attachments and formatted text,
click the Quote or Reply buttons on each post above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start New Topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.
Start New Topic


Back to top of page

           
15 Most Recent Topics

Problems with this web site? Please contact the Webmaster.

All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted.
Unless stated otherwise, all the material displayed on this web site, including all text, photographs, drawings and other images, is copyright and the property of the respective contributor. Registered members are welcome to use it for their own personal non-commercial modelmaking purposes. It must not be reproduced or re-published elsewhere in any form, or used commercially, without first obtaining the owner's express permission.
The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.    © 2008

                 

Recent Topics Back to top of page

Powered by UltraBB 1.15 Copyright © 2007-2011 by Jim Hale and Data 1 Systems. Page design copyright © 2008-2013 Martin Wynne. Photo gallery copyright © 2009 David Williams.