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A portal frame building - Scratchbuilding. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 02:50 am
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toto
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Whilst I've been sitting back on my butt awaiting the shed ban ( enforced by SWMBO ) to be lifted I've been playing around with a few idea's for an attempt to build my own structure for either the Scrap Yard Shed or / and the Steel Stock a Holders / Fabrication shed.

I have started to put some sketches together to get an idea of what could be done. I currently have the two end elevations roughly done although not to scale yet. They give the idea of whats to come.

I'll be working on the other two elevations of the concept design and will then post for some comments.

The era is the sixties and from what I understand steel portal frames were already being used so that would be ok.

However, cladding. ? Would I need to stick to the old corrugated stuff or would there have been even basic steel / Aluminium profiles available ?

Inside there will be loading facilities and a fabrication workshop ( not necessarily for huge items. ( still to be decided ). Extractor ducts will be built in and at one end there will be a second level with design offices built in.

It's all very rough at the moment but hopefully it will become clearer as it goes. I will do so much detail to the inside but only to a point. What I really need at the moment is to make sure that I get the correct choice of " materials " that would have been available. Either that or stretch the era a bit and just go with it. If I am constrained to corrugated iron profiles, that will probably change the whole concept back to something very more primitive altogether.



Any comments suggestions welcome. Meanwhile I will do an internet trawl to see what that throws up design period wise.

Cheers

Toto

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 04:56 am
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toto
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Hi,

I've been researching the use of aluminium or mild steel profiled sheet cladding but things are a bit vague.

Certainly aluminium was available at the end of the 1800's but due to the lack of details and expense in extracting it from ore at the time, it was not greatly used. Initial costs of extraction had it valued higher than that of gold at the time.

Further reading states that it was used more in the 1920's to 1940's after the discovery of more efficient extraction methods and the effect that it had on the price. However, still a lack of design details and technical specification hampered its early inclusion into the construction industry. It was used quite extensively in the construction of certain elements of the a Empire State Building in the states.

I'm looking for a convincing argument or reference that could safely pin the use of either aluminium or mild steel profiled sheeting to new build industrial buildings of the 60's and 70's. More so the sixties.

The R & GLR will be predominately brick built structures but the steel fabrication side of things would have been an addition to the area .
So, major use would have been made of the existing brick structures in adaptation for the changing requirements of railway led industries at the time but newer construction methods ( I think ) would have been becoming available even though maybe in their infancy.

If anyone can assist me in pinning this type of construction type to the given timeline, it would be appreciated.

Cheers

Toto

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 11:17 am
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shunter1
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Hi Toto,Popular roofing materials in the 60,s/70,s.The dreaded flat roof useing felt and bitumen with a gravel topping.Asbestos corregated sheeting.Mild steel zinc coated sheeting corregated.Main structures either brick for small medium buildings but it was expensive,Concrete was popular in larger structures.Metal window frames were in vogue in big buildings in the 60,s.
Corregated metal sheeting was disliked by railway companies in the steam era due to corrosion from coal smoke,Asbestos sheeting was used dispite the known health dangers ?.
However many shed structures in mining and industry did use metal sheeting to clad steel structures in open type of buildings a bit like Farm hay barns of the era.
Hope that helps.
Derek.

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 01:08 pm
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Gary
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Steel mills were varied as it depends on how long such mills have been in operation. Most would have either been brick or corrugated iron. I can't see why you can't make the office buildings from brick and the workshop/foundry from corrugated iron.

Here is a pic of a steel mill in the UK : http://www.kittiwakeholroyd.com/steel-production-acoustic-emissions-monitoring-analysis.htm Don't worry about the words, only the picture !

Another pic of a brick steel mill (4th pic down) http://vinchad.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/kelham-island-museum.html

Dalzell Plate Mill (Scotland) : http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/motherwell/motherwell/ (bottom pic).

The use of glass in the foundary walls is something you could do as well.

For corrugated iron, Evergreen Styrene have item no. 4526. This is the 'closest to scale' corrugated iron in styrene available.

For asbestos roofing Evergreen Styrene item no. 4527. Brick sheet is available from Slaters : https://slatersplastikard.com/plastikard/embossed.php

Cheers, Gary.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 02:22 pm
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60019Bittern
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This may answer a few questions Toto. It's Scottish too.

http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/archive/british-steel-tollcross-tube-works__o_t__t_3198.html



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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 02:43 pm
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toto
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Hi Derek,

You've kicked my brain into gear. Zinc cladding, now there is an idea. I understand the reasoning behind the dislike of corrugated metal sheeting in the team days so this may have to be ruled out.
Pity as this building would be a say mid sixties build when dieselisation was picking up pace. However, I still intend to run steam as well so I would not really get away with it.

I think the old corrugated asbestos / iron or similar will have to come into play for the walls. I'll do some more research into the roof as I need to find an example of a construction detail for the eaves etc to show me how the corrugated sheeting would have been finished around the edges. Thinking about eaves and gutter details etc.

It could maybe have been some kind of reasonably simple barge board arrangement. The " drawing office " section of the building would have been an add on. ( or at least mine is ). I will probably plump for a brick or concrete construction with the old metal frame windows.

I have produced a couple of indicative drawings which will be posted later. I still have a couple of elevations to work on.
This building will be part of a complex as it will merge I towards my scrap yard / recycling area as well . This has still to be worked out yet . The scrap yard " shed" would probably have been the original structure in the area and the fabrication shop and steel stock holders would have been second with some modifications having been made for the office area as the last adaptation.

Thanks for your input as it got me thinking again.

Gary,

Thanks as always for the links for both prototype and material reference. I'll be looking in closer detail at both. Brickwork could come into play for the office extension which would have been the last part added or modified in the complex. It would also allow me to bring in another material for the roof of the office to break up the expanse of corrugated materials.

My initial sketches show the use of corrugated materials for the office end but is not set in stone. It is indicative only and the sketches are more for the purpose of a general arrangement perspective.

I'll go for now as I am about to do a bit more sketching while the subject and idea's are hot of the press.

Again cheers and I'll update later.

Toto

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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 02:54 pm
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Gary
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A good reason for a brick office block would be for insulation. A mill of any size that produces steel products would create emmense heat. In case of an emergency like a fire, the office workers would have a better chance of evacuation...

Cheers, Gary.



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 Posted: Fri Oct 24th, 2014 09:20 pm
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toto
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Hi Gary,

I agree with the brick for the office. This is not a steel manufacturing plant. It is steel stock holders and a fabrication workshop so Although there will be some heavy duty equipment and stuff, there wont be a smelting plant. I wouldn't have anywhere ear enough the room for that.

Here are a couple of the sketches that I have drawn up. they are for use as a concept guide only. I would imagine that there will be a few changes to be made before it got to the construction stages.

All apertures etc are indicative and will be modularised to the nearest sizes available from Brass masters or the like. The various louvres etc can be made from styrene and the ducting etc will carry on throughout the inside of the building.

Both vertical and Horizontal claddings will have profiled skylight type sheets built in to capitalise on daylight.

The other side elevation which I still have to sketch will have a loading platform to the outside of the building. The fabrication workshop will go to the rear of the building.

apologies for the roughness of the sketches but they will give an idea. First up is the side elevation.



next is the front and rear elevations,



and then a general arrangement of the roof plan,



I've tried to use a bit of hatching to demonstrate where the different materials / surfaces change etc but sometimes it does more bad than good.

However I'll get the missing elevation done and posted later. I am aware than RWP's and flashings etc are not shown but they will be worked in later. The above is just a sketch.

any comments ......... feel free,

cheers

Toto

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2014 02:50 am
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shunter1
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Looking good my friend.
Plenty of variety and it looks authentic.

Go for it.
Derek.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2014 03:42 am
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toto
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Hi Derek,

Still the " rail side " elevation to go and I also need to do some site sizing and scaling to see that it would work in. I'll do that when I am in the shed tomorrow.

As you say, a bit of variation of construction type, method and materials going on but I think that it adds to the realism as usually the rejuvenation of existing buildings was an everyday thing on the railways.

You can look at extensions and usage and determine when things were changed just by the type of construction etc. I have tried to keep it to the type of building that would / may have been originally used and then just added on in order to bring it a bit closer to the required period.

We will wait and see how it turns out. I'd like to do it credit but I can only go on the skills I've got. It will be fun whatever happens.:mutley

Thanks for the positive comments

Cheers

Toto

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2014 08:03 pm
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toto
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OK,

here we go, my first attempt at any kind of building at all. This first effort is a card mock up of the main sizes etc for my Fabrication workshop / steel stock holder / scrapyard area.

This is building one,

The front, sides and rear cut out ready for assembly,



and the next up, I cut and stuck supports for internal stiffeners to the inside of the side elevations,



I did not go bananas with the stiffeners as its only a mock up and its amazing how strong it gets as it comes together,

next up I start gluing the front, sides and rear together,



and the rear,



and then the other side,



and then the bracing goes in,



another shot of the bracing in place,



and then The upper doofers go in,



and next is the lower roof section,



and then the upper roof sections,



and another of the same,



and its time to try it for size in the shed.



and another from the front this time,



and another last shot of the shed in place,



The structure was super glued but I used masking tape to help hold in position whilst the glue took properly. Again, its only a mock up to get footprint sizes and wall, roof sizes etc but other wise, this will be the physical size of building number 1.

I'll leave you with that for the moment as I am away to get stated on the second building which is the office extension element which will attach directly onto the rear of the shed.

I hope the above has been of some interest

cheers

Toto.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2014 08:51 pm
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shunter1
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Brilliant mock up Toto.It really looks right on your railway.
I assume the wagons will roll right through with track access both ends ?.

regards,
Derek.

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 Posted: Sat Oct 25th, 2014 10:25 pm
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Spurno
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Looks pretty good for a mock up Tom.Can you not try cladding that and save yourself some work?.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 12:08 am
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toto
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Hi Alan,

C'mon now....... that would be cheating wouldn't it :mutley

here is phase two, The newly extended office block, starting with the bare bones, the wall sections with some bearers for strengthening. These are not floor heights. Again for the purpose of the mockup only outside dimensions have been worked on.



And next, the shell starts to go up.



And the strngthening goes in to brace the structure a bit.



The out side shell is now complete just the roof to go.



and another,



And the roof goes on,



and again,



and it starts to come together a bit,



and again,



and one more of the same from a slightly different angle.



and now its out to the shed,



and another of it in place,



and the last one of phase two.



well thats it for today. The tools are away until tomorrow when I hope to complete phase 3, the scrap yard she. its not adjoined, well, by other buildings anyway but there may be a twist to the set up ......... if it works out. I'm sure I'll get the consensus.

cheers for now and hope you liked the above.

toto

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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 12:20 am
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toto
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Hi Derek,

The wagons will be able to go right through, ......... But maybe not quite how you think.:mutley

There could be a little bit of skulduggery going on at this part of the layout.
I think it may become clearer once I get phase three built. ........ The scrap yard shed. I will be able to fill you in a bit better when all three mock ups are in place and I can explain better.

Watch this space. Now it's time to see what else has been going on on the forum.

Cheers for now

Toto

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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 12:59 am
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Spurno
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toto wrote:

C'mon now....... that would be cheating wouldn't it :mutley



Not really,for a start you've made it so it's scratch built,secondly why go to so much trouble with strenghteners etc if it's only a mock up.Surely a mock up is just to see if something with the required dimensions fits the layout I still think for a mock up they are substantial and impressive.Well done.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 01:17 am
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toto
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Hi Alan,

Thanks for the kind comments. I understand where you are coming from. I may be wrong but Apart from using this for a more scale dimension checker, I think that if I took my time I could do better in plastic.

Not just that but the finished version will have a certain amount of the inside detail installed which the mock up does not provide for.

The stiffeners could not act as " floor levels as they were installed at any old height just to give strength. The office block may see a bit of change at ground level. I am thinking about dedicating the ground floor to the fabrication workshop area and the floors above as the design offices. This will probably change the outside appearance a bit. Not its footprint but positioning of doors, windows, extractors etc.

The original phase one building is a goods in type area but will also facilitate my envisaged " twist " to the way that this whole area will function from an operational point of view. All will become clearer hopefully tomorrow when " phase three " the scrap yard shed falls into place.

Once again, thanks for the compliments. I've enjoyed this part of the build.

Cheers

Toto

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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 05:29 am
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Gary
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You don't muck about do you ! ;-)

IMO, I think the office block section is too tall. Looking at the wagon entrance, I'd say it would be approx 75-80mm in height, 100mm -120mm wide. In scale that equates to 18'9" - 20' in height, and the whole building around 200-215mm (50'-53'9") in height.

The office tower looks more like the area where the crane for loading would be situated. I would reduce the height a little, which still would make a building three stories plus high, or two office levels over the rail entrance. ;-)



Cheers, Gary.



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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 06:12 am
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toto
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Hi Gary,

You have a very good sense of scale with your estimated measurements. Nearly bang on in fact.

I would agree with what you are saying with regards to the height of the office block. Originally it was lower. The drawings show that as well. However, I did mention a potential twist that may come into play.

Let me complete phase three tomorrow and explain a bit further. It may well be that the office block still needs to be scaled down but maybe not. There may also be other options once you see where I am going with this and I will be delighted to take on board any further comments / suggestion.

I'll be back.

Cheers again

Toto.

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 Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2014 06:58 pm
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toto
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Hi again.

Concept building number 3, the scrap yard shed has been completed and placed on the layout.

I did have a certain " twist " in mind for this part but on playing around with the placement of the building, I changed my mind in favour of another more simplistic set up. This will mean that Gary's height reduction may come into play for the office block and I may slightly downscale building number 3.

Anyway, here it is.

The super structure goes up ( I did not bother the various stages as its just the same as what's gone before )



and another



and one more,



again a mixture of superglue, masking tape and strengtheners.

The roof goes on,



and another, this time showing the canopy a bit more clearly.



Of to the shed and in place. A single line runs into the shed. The track may have to be tweaked a bit for a better fit.



and again,



and the last one.



Thats all the buildings for that area for the moment. I am going on to look at the TMD area with a view to starting concept project number two.

Here is the area under development,

Behind and around the turntable area.



There will be some kind of structure runs across the door wall side behind the turntable. This will have two purposes. The area underneath will serve as a loco stabling point, and the area above will be a higher level track level which will run DMU's and small mixed freight.



The high level track will come around onto the rear wall,travel down so far and cross over towards the bottom corner of the warehouse district. or at least in theory. We'll wait and see, its still flexible as yet.



I will be back with any progress on Concept 2 build as soon as I get somewhere with it. This may take a bit longer as its not really just a box I'm building this time. Its a bit more of an irregular box.
:mutley:mutley:mutley

Cheers for viewing, all comments welcome as usual.

cheers

toto

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