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Nigel's Workbench December 31 2013 - On Members Workbenches. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Wed Jan 1st, 2014 01:57 am
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BCDR
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Keyser Bros. Outside Frame 0-6-0 Goods (“Dean Goods”).


On the workbench over the holiday break was the Keyser Bros. “Outside Frame Dean Goods”, Class 2361.  I bought this white metal kit 2 years ago for £20.00. Built in 1885-1886, there were 20 engines in the 2361 class – numbers 2361 to 2380.  The Dean Goods (23xx Class)were built contemporaneously from 1883 to 1899, and as far as I am aware, were never built with outside frames.   The 2361 class were double-framed with large outside cranks and under-hung springs outside of the driving wheels, the origins of which are in Dean and Armstrong broad gauge engines.   First built with parallel boilers the last rebuild saw them with Belpaire boilers (B4), superheat, and 2500 gallon tenders.   Although almost identical to the Dean Goods above the footplate, they quite different below. This small class was originally intended to be 60 in number, 40 frames were however built from 1886-1887 as 0-6-0 tank engines (the 1661 class).  There is an excellent photograph of a 2361 class at Bloxham on the old B&CDR in “The Banbury & Cheltenham Direct Railway” (Jenkins, Brown and Parkhouse, Litemoor Press, 2004, page 105) with a motley gang in attendance, “Nobby” Clarke holding a shunter’s pole and “Young” Frank Packer in short long trousers, which would date the photograph to 1920. 


The GWR were putting B4 boilers in 6-coupled engines from around 1901, so one of these in green with polished brass dome and safety valve will suit my modelling era of 1900-1915. And no or little weathering required!


The kit. The model has the B4 boiler and large dome and is not superheated.  The castings are in 4mm scale, and are in good shape for their age (30-odd years old).  The motor and worm/gear are the usual K’s offerings. The motor is a Mark-2 with 5-poles, which dates the kit to post 1983.  The worm is meant to be soldered on, and given the play is impossible to get concentric on the shaft.  The inside frames are about as basic as you can get – 0.04" thick brass bars with keyhole bearing slots and countersunk screw holes for the spacer rods.  The wheels in the kit were a lost cause, the plastic having fatigued with age.  Correct profile though.  The outside frames are purely cosmetic.  It’s OO gauge of course, and I will be changing this to EM gauge.  I checked the wheel clearance at EM gauge, I will need to take some material off the footplate casting and move the wheel splashers out slightly.  The coupling rods are one piece brass.  I will try to change these to something more functional.  K’s did a good job with the rivet detail except for the two circular rows around the smoke box door.  Not all of the class had this detail; some had a row of rivets at the bottom below the door and that is what I will model.


Materials used.  This is an exercise in economy and looking good from 3 feet, not a fine-scale miniature of the prototype – it is a K’s kit after all.  The instructions say, “Take care and take time and you will be amply rewarded with a fine detailed model”.  True perhaps for 1983, but certainly not for 2013.  I will be raiding the spares boxes, improvising, cannibalizing from my scrapyard, and generally using what is to hand whenever possible.  I am using a Mashima open frame 5 pole motor and Branchlines/Romford gearbox from the spares box, final ratio 1:40.  The open frames are actually more powerful than the equivalent can motor size, and run a lot cooler.


Frames. The frames are typical Keyser brass bars, drilled for bearings and OO spacers.  I reduced the depth of the frames where it would show between the wheels using the larges file I had, soldered the bearings in place, and used 2 brass washers 0.7mm thick to increase the inside width of the frames as this model is being built to EM gauge (18.2mm).  I did not attempt to compensate the wheels, as I did not fancy hacking away at those brass bars to get hornblocks fitted.   A representation of the bottom of the firebox and ash pan was made using a piece of brass bar and a spare white metal battery box (right size, extra weight).  This was glued to the frames below the firebox.  I will put some rivets/bolts (decals) on when painted.



 

Original frames and chassis



Modified frames and cosmetic ash pan.


Wheels.  The wheels are Romfords recycled from an old white metal Collett Goods (SE Finecast).  These are the older style; the flange does not meet RP25 standards.  I have some inside chaired track on my layout, so flange height is critical.  I was going to order new wheels (having sold my lathe earlier in the year), but John (Brossard) suggested that I use the Dremel.  After a bit of experimentation I found that #150 wet and dry followed by #220 wet and dry with frequent stops to check the flange height and profile against some new Markits wheels did the job, with no bouncing over the chair blocks.  I used new extended EM axles and 5mm long spacers.  I went for Markits deluxe outside cranks as they have a hefty look to them.


Motorization.  I used an open frame Mashima motor and a Branchlines 1:40 gearbox (Romford matched worm and gear) driving the middle wheel.  The motor just fits in the firebox.  With the wheel splasher in place the gearbox is not visible.  The DCC decoder will go in the tender.   I test ran the motor/gearbox/wheels using DC, very smooth and quiet.  I will run it in properly when the outside cranks and connecting rods are fitted.




Motorized modified chassis and ash pan

Body.  First step was to clean off 30 years of oxidation from the castings and remove any flashing.  I used a fine brass bristle brush, paying attention to the mating surfaces, and then gave everything several wipes with IPA to remove any grease.  I always wear gloves when doing this, white metal components are known to the State of California to be carcinogenic.  This presumably also applies to Québec as well, so no point in taking risks.


A quick test on a scrap of white metal from the kit showed that my soldering iron at its lowest temperature melted the low temperature solder and the white metal used for the castings (some of which are quite thin).  Too close for comfort, so gap-filling CAA was used (and sparingly).  Because the Mashima motor is a lot smaller than the Keyser monster I was left with a large hole in the bottom of the boiler.  I fitted a piece of curved brass (0.005”) to the inside, and filled the space with low temperature solder.  The boiler has enough thickness to act as a heat sink, so no damage was done. When cool it was filed to shape.  I will fill any imperfections with model filler after priming.  I found a brass Dean dome, safety valve and chimney in the spares box (from a Dean Single project),  so I will use them rather than the white metal ones in the kit.  I removed the representation of the smokebox door dart and used a brass one from the Dean Single project.  The backhead is not too bad, I will use some brass rod to represent piping.  It needs a lever reverser, which is on order as there was nothing in the spares box.  It also needs firebox doors and a handle. I will investigate the scrapyard box for something suitable.



Original slot for K's monster motor.



Filled-in slot.





Gearbox hidden by wheel splasher - daylight under the boiler!




Brass fittings from a Dean Single.



Cab details - needs some plumbing and a tea can.

That is all for the moment, I will complete the build on this in the next post (including the tender, which will require rails, not sheets). Detailing to follow next year.



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 Posted: Wed Jan 1st, 2014 02:49 am
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Wow!  Great progress on this Nigel.  It's looking good already.  Glad you got the wheels sorted.  There's a thread on RMWeb about Ks kits - you might want to check that out.  I'm not too keen on those great whacking screws in the frames but I guess the outside frames will disguise that.

I been using my iron set at ~205 C for whitemetal.

I seem to take ages to get any progress made on my kits.

Cheers and HNY!

John

 

 



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 Posted: Wed Jan 1st, 2014 03:13 am
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BCDR
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Hi John,
Thanks. My new soldering iron goes at 20, 30, 45 and 60W, my old one used to have a 15W setting, which was ideal for Keyser white metal. I really should get a better system with accurate temperature control (plus a new lathe, mill, press, etc.....). 
The wheels were interesting. The solid live ones were not a problem, the insulated ones had to be treated gently as the tire came off one at high speed and moderate pressure. Pressed back on, no harm done. 
I'm, planning on covering the screws with some "strengthening" plates with rivet detail. I hesitate to solder them tight as it would make taking the chassis apart a challenge. The cosmetic outside frames hide most of it anyway, and it'll get painted black. 
It's interesting that these kits are for sale in the region of £80.00-£100.00 on everybody's favorite auction site. When wheels, motor, gearbox, etc. are added it's getting on for £150.00-£200.00+. Plus the DCC gubbins. Not sure it's worth it for a 30 year-old kit. Luckily I've enough bits in the spares box to make it cost-effective.
Nigel



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 Posted: Wed Jan 1st, 2014 04:20 am
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I bought myself a Weller digital system a few months ago - ~ $200 so not cheap, but it has been transformative as far as my soldering goes.  That combined with using Plumbers Paste Flux (water soluble NOT petroleum based) from RONA has made a real difference.

Why on earth would you want to take the frames apart after setting things up? :roll:

I never encountered insulated wheel tyres coming off - these must be REALLY old wheels.  They look good though.  I have a similar looking set.

I suppose it's down to whether you want a model of this particular loco and what alternatives exist.  If this is the only kit then decision made.  However, it can be used as an aid to scratchbuilding, as I think you are doing.  Building a kit is not necessarily the same as making a model of a particular locomotive.

John



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 Posted: Fri Jan 3rd, 2014 07:55 pm
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:)Hello Nigel,

Excellent to see another good man building loco,s.

You are doing a very nice job on that old K Kit. I think I still have an old K Midland Spinner loco kit around.

The EM gauge is growing within our club here with John Brossard doing sterling work.

regards,

Derek.

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 Posted: Fri Jan 3rd, 2014 08:04 pm
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Hi Nigel

Far far beyond my capabilities but I do enjoy reading about your projects..........thank you for posting

Regards from a relatively dry and mild Vancouver



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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2014 12:45 am
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BCDR
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Thanks everybody for the comments on the project so far. These old K's kits were cutting edge at the time, with a wealth of detail studiously ignored by the RTR manufacturers. As you may have gathered, I'm trying to do this one at minimal expense, so far so good.

Some more progress - see the pictures. I'll add pipework to the backhead when painted. The backhead bottom and firebox doors were done using scrap bits of brass. I soldered up the handles from brass strip. Bit over-scale but looks fine fine from 3 feet (hasn't been polished yet). Cab floor is now in place (soldered, very gingerly I must say). Next up is the reverser lever, as a new casting is over budget (i.e., it costs money!), some ATC gear (gong, siren box) as it's intended for the Fairford Branch and some cab hand rails.


Nigel









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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2014 01:03 am
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Hi Derek,

Building a K's kit is sometimes a challenge, especially in EM as the body moldings were intended for HO gauge. Luckily on this one there is (just) enough metal to allow an EM wheel set. My layout has (will have) prototypical curves, so I don't need a lot of side play on the axles. The other project on the bench is a K's 14xx to a class 517 conversion (open cab). The chassis is already in EM, hopefully I'll find some time tomorrow to do some work on it.

John (Brossard) lives on the other side of the St. Lawrence river from me - probably 25 km and at least 2 hours travel each way! EM is alive and well in North America.

Nigel



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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2014 01:32 am
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Yay!  :doublethumb

John



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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2014 10:07 pm
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:)Hi Nigel thanks for your reply,

That Dean is coming on a treat.

What cleaner do you use to bring up that great shine on the white metal?

Nice to have a fellow EM follower not to far from you. Plus our club here is a great bonus.

Proto typical curves, Nice.

My railway has great length but suffers a bit on width in some places.

So some 36-40 inch curves had to be employed on the dogbone loops being built.

I was reading the other day in the Scalefour News of a guy who has built a S4 railway useing 36 inch curves.

He is running 4-6-0 loco,s with success. Useing a modified bogie arrangement.

Keep up the great builds,

Derek.

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 Posted: Sun Jan 5th, 2014 11:41 pm
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I'm in the process of updating my Ex-Mainline Dean Goods. Managed to get a Perserverence Chassis kit for both the loco and tender so made a start on the tender chassis today while I was waiting for dinner to cook. Perserverence is a good name for the kits. You need lots of it and don't trust the instructions. Basic to say the least.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2014 12:52 am
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Years ago, I upgraded my Dean Goods with a Perserverance chassis (loco and tender).  It made a huge difference in performance and looks - esp. daylight under the tender. (I sold it and I've no idea where it is now).  Mind you, it wouldn't pull much - but it didn't need to.  I recall that the worm gear intruded into the cab but I imagine that you should find a better gearbox today.  I'm quite taken by the High Level boxes - large range of ratios and easy to set up.

John



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Hi Derek,

Fine bristle brass brush - suede or similar. Followed by a wipe with IPA (not the stuff that comes in pint glasses). Gives just enough bite for the primer - Testors or similar for metal. Not car primer, as it contains too many fillers that can hide details.

Today was a "one step forward, two steps back" sort of day. I had a rethink about the backhead. The regulator lever is in the wrong position (should be an "up and over" not a "down", and the various dials (or clacks, not sure which) are are a bit questionable. Found a nice diagram in Roche, I am way over scale with my representation of the firebox door, I need to be using 0.5mm bar. I'll switch to styrene for the moment until I get some etches done (added to the shopping list, I need to fill a complete sheet to be cost effective). My tray was also too low. 

I spent 15 minutes on some deconstruction (hacking with liberal use of Xuron cutters). Pretty much a clean sheet now. The lower lump on the LHS could be a representation of one of the clacks, of which I found 2 in the spares box, so it may come off. Roche has some nice diagrams of pressure dials, so once scanned into the computer I will reduce and print as decals. 
The brass bolt holding the chassis to the body will be reduced in length and will be covered by the fall plate.

Nigel




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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2014 03:33 am
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The chassis kit from High Level looks superb and easy to build, it's on my to buy list (Birthday is coming up, hints have been dropped). Bit pricey, but fantastic detail, and meant to be compensated. I've a Hornby Dean Goods waiting for conversion (EM), the problem about putting the motor in the boiler is that is where the weight is. Liberal use of lead sheet is probably called for. I originally had mine with DCC sound, with mini speakers under the chimney, one pointing up and one down with holes drilled in the smokebox bottom. The gears of the ringfield drive in the tender made more noise however. It'll be nice to get the decoder and a decent speaker back in the tender.

If you can, go for an open frame rather than a can motor, size for size the open frame is more powerful (and doesn't get so hot). Go for a multi-position gearbox, that way you can have the motor horizontal in the boiler driving the back wheels with the gearbox hidden in the firebox with a good reduction ratio (1:40 minimum, I'll be going for 1:50 or 1:60).

Nigel



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 Posted: Mon Jan 6th, 2014 12:21 pm
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Thanks for that cleaning info Nigel,
Those open frame motors are something to look into.
Goodluck with the cab and back head details.

Derek.

PS:Nigel have you had any experience with Exactoscale wheels?

I was browsing the C&L web site and looking at their wheel range.

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 Posted: Tue Jan 7th, 2014 04:43 am
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Hi Derek,
I stick with Markits (drivers, I like the solid metal) and Ultrascale wheels (RTR wheelsets but the wait can be off-putting), Gibson's for bogies and tenders (never drivers). Never tried Exactoscale.
Nigel



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As I look at the C&L site, Exactoscale loco wheels all seem to be P4.  I have some of the EM wagon wheels and they look gorgeous - yet to use them though.

Ha, another modeller with reservations about Gibson drivers.

I'm a great fan of all things High Level.  The standard of engineering is superb.  I may have a go at the Jinty chassis some day - perhaps when I get around to building my Gibson Jinty kit - maybe a good place to dip one's toes into P4.

John



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 Posted: Tue Jan 7th, 2014 08:26 pm
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Thanks for the replies guys,
I must confess those Gibson driver,s are very temperamental
They look good but certainly need a better axle to Wheel hub method of fixing.
I have used Markit Wheels, Although its a pity they are not a bit more refined. Maybe its me but They seem a little overscale?
P4 John, Here we go again?
Why not use P4 wheels on the EM track gauge with a little closing of check rails to 0.8 mm instead of 1.0mm.
I am saying this because I would hate to try a steam loco build with outside valve gear in P4 and less than prototype radius curves. Just my opinion though.
Ordered silver steel rod and nickle silver rod 1/8th dia for axles. Going to try the Nickle silver as an experiment?
regards to you both.
Derek.

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Well Derek, you're right about Markits - they are a bit chunky with tyres that are a bit on the wide side.  P4 spec says 2mm and EM spec says 2.28mm.  I think Markits are ~ 2.5mm.  This difference doesn't matter as long as you're doing inside cylinder locos and provided that the body has adequate clearance.  I suspect it might be the result of Markits trying to cater for the 00 crowd as well as EM.  Given the cavernous flamgeways of universal 00 track, tyres need to be wide enough to prevent the loco from disappearing into the gap.  If you know you will have less than ideal curve radii, the frame width can be reduced to give more sideplay.

The important thing (for me anyway) about Markits is that the flange width is correct for EM.

I'd be hesitant about creating my own spec. since I will probably want to play with others :mrgreen: - besides Nigel there are a couple of other EM gaugers around here.

As undoubtedly nice as Exactoscale wheels are, they are twice the price of Markits and I did note that there's a tool for 36.00 :shock:

As far as building an outside cyclinder loco - that remains to be seen.  I know from my reading that clearances can be very tight in some cases.

My guess is that steel is a better material for axles than NS - that's just my opinion though :cool wink

John



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 Posted: Wed Jan 8th, 2014 01:00 am
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Hi John, I was looking at that wheel puller tool myself.
£36 plus postage and currency difference makes it pricey.
If it worked on Gibson,s If I stay with them it might be worth it rather than wrecking wheel sets?
Better give Nigel his Dean build Thread back!
regards,

Derek.

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