Video Archive         Recent Topics      
YMR logo

You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > More Practical Help > Members Projects > On Members Workbenches. > Granby Rolling Stock .......an occasional thread To bottom of page
                 

 Moderated by: Spurno
Start New Topic Reply Printer Friendly

Granby Rolling Stock .......an occasional thread - On Members Workbenches. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
AuthorPost
 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 05:29 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 1st post
John Dew
Full Member


Joined: Tue Dec 1st, 2009
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Posts: 3759
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Not sure if this is the right spot for this post.......my layout thread now runs to over 40 pages and must be pretty daunting for anyone trying to start at the beginning. As the layout is almost 90% done I am tending to spend more time on operating/developing rolling stock rather than construction. So my posts are becoming less frequent.

I have been contemplating starting a separate thread about Granby's stock for some time.

What better topic to start with than this rather elderly lady:




I bought her at Beatties in Meadowhall,Sheffield on a trip to the UK in 1998. If I were to try and sell her, I could put hand on heart and assure any prospective purchaser......."very low mileage guv "

To acquire mileage a loco has to run.......this doesnt!    She has been in my show case of non runners since.......1998

Fat Pizza cutter wheels combined with only 2 wheel pick ups ( front right hand bogie and rear left hand bogie) is not a recipe for reliable running!

The loco came, briefly, out of display in 2010. I fitted a DCC Concepts decoder with Stay Alive which did improve running to the extent she actually ran schedules for a few weeks.

Sadly not reliably enough....too much stalling on points.....so back to the display case until a month ago and I read this thread:

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=11857&forum_id=62

BCDR wrote: Improving the Lima GWR/BR Diesel Railcar. Part 1, Non-powered Bogie.

 
©Nigel C. Phillips, 2013

An excellent 'how to" post......a model of clarity. It reawakened my interest.....I dusted the old model down and started pm ing Nigel who was super helpful

A few short weeks later :




A glittering set of brand new 00 Ultrascale Wheels (courtesy Nigel)........just look at the difference!



This is the rear (non motor)bogie



Power is picked up by the RH Wheels and thence to the live axle, the phosphor bronze collector and finally the centre brass pin.

 The LH Wheels are insulated.....the first job was to create pickups for them .....following Nigels excellent tutorial (but sadly not to the same standard) I cut some spare brass strip down, did the same to some phosphor bronze and soldered them together. 

There are two sets but only one is wired up. The other is there just to keep the wheels in balance.....it is inert because current is already collected thru the axle




The bogie was then re attached to the chassis



You can see the clip that connects the current from the bogie centre post and together with its red pick up wire there is now a black wire from the new pick ups

Next job was the Front Motor bogie......here the wheel sets were reversed. Power was picked up by the LH wheels......the RH (geared) wheels were insulated and without pick ups



As Nigel said....this was trickier. It was very difficult to get the pick ups.....making contact but NOT fouling the gear wheels or the rails.........the above, while not a great example of the metalworkers craft, finally satisfied those criteria

Because this is DCC, the grey and orange wires are for the motor and on the right the black and red are the pick up wires.

I popped the power bogie back in the chassis for some DC testing



Bitter and expensive experience has taught me to test and test again before I let a decoder within sight of anything I am working on

The shot above shows the Red pick ups (from fore and aft) temporarily connected to the Orange motor wire and the Black Pick up wires connected to the Grey motor wire.

Next step connect the wheels in turn to DC power and in an ideal world they spin smoothly round. My world is rarely ideal ...........................they did not.

Connect to the front bogie no problem.....connect to the rear bogie no problem......but not both bogies together:twisted:

Maybe switch the rear wheel sets so the insulated wheels pick up?:hmm

I am so used to these self inflicted screw ups I barely turned a hair.....the dog didnt even realise there was a problem




Having solved that, before wiring up the decoder, I had to locate the capacitor for the Stay Alive




The capacitor is the blue cylinder in the centre gangway.......the theory with Stay Alive is that the capacitor stores up power which can be called on by the decoder when there is a loss of power

I have seen demos where a loco runs off the track and continues for 12" without any power whatsoever. I have used 3 different makes (Lenz, TCS and DCC Concepts) and they all, to varying degrees, do what it says on the label.

I tend to use them as a last resort solution.....they are an additional expense, quite bulky and some demonstrate a tendency to creep.

In the case of the Rail Car it was the original decoder I used and I didnt have any others.....I may eventually try it with my favourite Lenz Standard




Seating unit in place.....all the wires fed underneath and the decoder hooked up with the connections covered with shrink tubing.

Dont normally have the luxury of all this space with Tank Engines!







And finally back on duty at Granby Junction.......still deliberating the route....either Crewe or Oswestry






Running performance is excellent......... 8mph scale speed over 2 connected insulfrog double slips is my acid test......she passed with flying colours

Acceleration is not as smooth as I would wish but I think that is a result of the DCC Concepts decoder which I always struggle with rather than a mechanical/electrical issue

All in all a very satisfying result......a loco rescued from the scrap heap and back in regular service........many thanks Nigel!:cheers:cheers

What great dividends we can gain from this club!



____________________
John
Granby III
Lenz DCC ,RR&Co Gold V9.0 A4 Windows 10
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 08:14 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 2nd post
pnwood
DON'T SHOUT my hearing is fine


Joined: Tue Sep 15th, 2009
Location: Newbury, United Kingdom
Posts: 1327
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Hi John

I had completely missed the thread you've linked. It's looks a great conversion to update the old girl. The Railcar is one of my favourite bits of rolling stock and my Lima, low mileage like yours but still DC runs really smoothly and is very controllable down to a crawl. It does growl a bit and I've even had someone ask if it has a sound chip in it :shock:

I've thought about changing the wheels to Ultrascale but as I'm not experiencing any problems with the running I decided to leave well alone. I put the good running of mine down to regularly cleaning all wheels and pick ups and of course I have live frog points which helps.

Keep up the excellent explanations and I look forward to seeing more on your other stock.




____________________
Nick AKA Woody
-------
Much Murkle GWR a layout in the making
Much Murkle website
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 11:23 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 3rd post
Spurno
Owner/Webmaster.


Joined: Tue Aug 14th, 2012
Location: Torquay, United Kingdom
Posts: 4092
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

An excellent start to your new thread John and with one of my favourite pieces of rolling stock.



____________________
Regards

Alan


Born beside the mighty GWR.
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 11:53 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 4th post
shunter1
Member
 

Joined: Thu Aug 19th, 2010
Location: Kilkenny, Ireland
Posts: 2366
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Excellent work John,
I do like your way of describing wireing up these DCC things. Even I can understand them.Giving the wire colour to what does what makes things so easy to follow.
Enjoy the old Lady and her return from retirement.

regards,

Derek.

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 01:55 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 5th post
Brossard
Member


Joined: Sat Jul 23rd, 2011
Location: Brossard, Quebec Canada
Posts: 2959
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Great to see this revival.:)

John



____________________
John

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 05:35 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 6th post
Ianbo
Deceased Member


Joined: Sat Feb 21st, 2009
Location: Nottingham, United Kingdom
Posts: 1343
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Sounds like you've aquired a new loco :doublethumb



____________________
Bozzy(never known to pass a pub)
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Nov 19th, 2013 08:43 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 7th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16589
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Great thread John. :thumbs:thumbs

I'm really looking forward to getting to know your stock at close quarters.  This is an excellent starting point.

An interesting point about the "stay alive" - I bought some Hattons decoders whilst in UK last week - a sort of "suck it and see" exercise because they seemed incredibly cheap.  Their latest offerings have "stay alive" as a standard fitting (although at extra cost).

Whilst I don't have any locos of the vintage of the Lima railcar, I do have one or two that are apparently challenging to chip so threads like this make good classrooms.

It would also seem that DCC has improved the performance of that old motor which must surely have been somewhat "lumpy" by design rather than lack of pickups .......................:roll:



____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Nov 20th, 2013 09:11 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 8th post
Gary
Inactive Member


Joined: Mon May 21st, 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 3837
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Hi John,

I have an old Triang 101 Class DMU with a new set of wheels waiting for installation. This has taken a back seat at the moment, due to purchasing a newer model from Hattons. Hopefully I'll get around to improving it, oneday ! It's always good to get the 'old girls' going again. Some good info in Nigels link. Well done to you both.

Hi Peter,

I have used 'Stay Alive' in a few of my older, pre dcc models and I'm impressed with the running qualities. The stay alive does make a different and like John said, some models are prone to 'creeping'.

Cheers, Gary.



____________________
...as a young lad, it was big trains for little boys, now it is little trains for big boys...!

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=12116&forum_id=21

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 21st, 2013 03:17 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 9th post
John Dew
Full Member


Joined: Tue Dec 1st, 2009
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Posts: 3759
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Thanks guys, glad you enjoyed my rambling post.


pnwood wrote: Hi John
  It does growl a bit and I've even had someone ask if it has a sound chip in it :shock:

You are absolutely right there Nick.......the next time Dave (G'daysydney) and Peter have a go at me about sound or lack thereof I can claim I have made a start:lol:

I've thought about changing the wheels to Ultrascale but as I'm not experiencing any problems with the running I decided to leave well alone. I put the good running of mine down to regularly cleaning all wheels and pick ups and of course I have live frog points which helps. Keep up the excellent explanations and I look forward to seeing more on your other stock.
The Utrascale upgrade was the easiest enhancement I have ever done...literally drop in.

My regular points have live frogs (but there are some nasty gaps) but being coarse gauge the double slips only come with insulfrog.

The fact you can achieve that level of running from a 2 wheel pick up speaks volumes about your track laying:mrgreen:

Petermac wrote: An interesting point about the "stay alive" - I bought some Hattons decoders whilst in UK last week - a sort of "suck it and see" exercise because they seemed incredibly cheap.  Their latest offerings have "stay alive" as a standard fitting (although at extra cost).

Whilst I don't have any locos of the vintage of the Lima railcar, I do have one or two that are apparently challenging to chip so threads like this make good classrooms.

It would also seem that DCC has improved the performance of that old motor which must surely have been somewhat "lumpy" by design rather than lack of pickups .......................:roll:
 

I cant comment on the Hattons Decoders.......as you know I was very disappointed with some budget Bachmann decoders I bought......I will be very interested to hear how you get on with the ones from Hattons (whom I hold in high regard).......any idea of the actual manufacturer ?

As I said, I tend to use "stay alive" as a solution of last resort. I put stay alive in quotes because , in truth, they are the least satisfactory of the trio that I have tried..............

Lenz (cant remember the name) are good but prohibitively expensive....they only come with a gold chip :shock:. I bought one because of a childish determination to have a Dean Goods run on Granby. In the end I canned the Dean (there is no way you, or at least I, can get tender drive to look realistic). I shifted the chip and appendage to an Autocoach permanently coupled to a 14xx where it performs brilliantly

DCC Concepts have "Stay Alive" . I tried 4........they are "ok" but I will not be buying any more......the capacitor behaves almost like a battery and requires "Charging" before it functions, it displays a very unrealistic occasional surge and the decoder is a total pain to programme.......says he having struggled for hours with the one in the rail car

Train Control Systems (TCS) have "Keep Alive".........I bought one for another 14xx and it is brilliant.....in terms of both keeping alive and producing a smooth speed curve.....

In fact I have just ordered another one for my latest acquistion a Hornby 28xx 2-8-0......you may well ask why am I fitting a "last resort" decoder into a brand new loco (circa 2011 release).........but that is another story :twisted::twisted::twisted:



____________________
John
Granby III
Lenz DCC ,RR&Co Gold V9.0 A4 Windows 10
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 21st, 2013 04:05 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 10th post
John Dew
Full Member


Joined: Tue Dec 1st, 2009
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Posts: 3759
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I cant comment on the Hattons Decoders.......as you know I was very disappointed with some budget Bachmann decoders I bought......I will be very interested to hear how you get on with the ones from Hattons (whom I hold in high regard).......any idea of the actual manufacturer ?

I can answer my own question.....I checked Hattons site........the price is very good but they are DCC Concepts:cry:



____________________
John
Granby III
Lenz DCC ,RR&Co Gold V9.0 A4 Windows 10
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Nov 21st, 2013 06:15 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 11th post
Petermac
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 13th, 2007
Location: Nr Bergerac, France
Posts: 16589
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

I bought the Hattons decoders essentially to go into the trailer car of 2 car DMU's John - at least, I thought that's what they'd be used in !!  Apparently the Derby Lightweight uses a 6 pin in the trailer car ...............thank you very much Mr Bachmann !!!! :twisted::twisted:

When I first saw them (the decoders), they were, I think, around£9.50 each in packs of 5.  Searching their site, I couldn't find them listed so rang the shop.  I was told that the chips advertised in the press had been replaced by the "new model" which had "stay-alive" as standard.  They were, naturally, more expensive although only slightly more.

I bought a pack of 5 - I have 2 DMU sets to chip and thought, at the price, I'd try them. The modelling press seemed to like them when they launched but that could have been on price only.  The Bachmann 6 pin I had to buy for the Derby cost me £15 (for 2 less pins !!!!!! :twisted::twisted::twisted::twisted:)

As you know, my preference is for Lenz Silvers but have been known to buy the odd TCS plug in - unless of course, I'm buying sound chips. :roll:



____________________
'Petermac
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Jan 28th, 2014 11:30 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 12th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 2936
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Nice piece of work John, especially the pickup around the gears. If you're short of space, put the electronic modules where the weight goes rather than in the body (just cut a third off with a hacksaw).

I've been following the thread on decoders and wheels with interest. I did use a Soundtraxx with "Galloping Goose" sound files (6 cylinder petrol). Still a compromise as it only had one engine. That one sold, and I am waiting for somebody to go and record the one that's running at Didcot (even although it will be in many respects generic, see below). The upcoming Dapol AEC Flying Banana is going to be interesting. Hopefully whoever takes the plunge will get the sounds right. And let's not forget the twins!(4 engines). Plus the klaxon, which was I believe from the "Nord". Found the email I sent to Howes:

"DCC sound for the early diesel railcars may require something quite different compared to #19 and above. Number 1 had one engine, numbers 2-6 started on 1 engine, with the second one automatically coming in at 10 mph. The earlier models had 4-speed gearboxes, Swindon body built models (numbers 19-38) had 5 speed gearboxes, and numbers 19 and 21 had selectable low and high ratios. The AEC engines on numbers 1-18 ran at 2000 rpm (maximum 2400 rpm, 80 mph), from number 19 on they ran at 1650 rpm (larger cylinders and injectors). The horns had dual tones apparently based on French CF du Nord klaxons (and not e-flat/f-flat)."

ESU do a couple of railcar sound suites (from memory French and German) that anybody with the right equipment can program into a Loksound decoder (not the Loksound Select, although there are some 6 cylinder diesels available). In the meantime plain vanilla decoders from Lenz (silver mini's) will have to do. I did try the "stay alive" set-up, in my limited experience it needs a much larger capacitor.

The original Lima wheels are fine for code 100 track (not as good looking). Not so good for code 75, and a definite no-go for my track, which is code 75 F/S EM gauge with a lot of inside chairs.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Tue Jan 28th, 2014 11:41 pm
PMQuoteReply
link to this 13th post
vulcanbomber
Full Member
 

Joined: Thu Feb 7th, 2013
Location: Reading, United Kingdom
Posts: 103
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

The best thing I did with my old Lima Railcar (mine's so old it's still got the white roof) was fitting a TCS decoder with Back EMF in it, greatly improved it's running It is still running very well back and forth on the shuttle line

Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Jan 29th, 2014 03:07 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 14th post
gormo
Full Member


Joined: Fri Dec 21st, 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2073
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

G`day John,
                  A very informative topic. I too have a flying banana ,in LMS livery ,and an express parcels version as well. Both are Lima and both have always been good runners, but they have been stored for many years.
                  I serviced the express parcels recently and found ,that by using the appropriate lube grease on the gears, it ran smoother and quieter.I used Labelle 106.  It will go down to a crawl which is very pleasing. If you are not familiar with Labelle , this link will give a demo of their products.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQkU18WmuWw
I am thinking of trying the 107 for the motor as well
                  
I would also like to ask about capacitors for stay alive. Would this work on DC and what size capacitor would be necessary....?????


Cheers Gormo



____________________
"Anyone who claims to have never made a mistake, never made anything!!"

https://sites.google.com/site/greatchesterfordmodelrailway/home
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Jan 29th, 2014 08:42 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 15th post
John Dew
Full Member


Joined: Tue Dec 1st, 2009
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Posts: 3759
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Thanks for the kind words Nigel................it was only due to you that I was able to do the job...........again many, many thanks


Richard.......Mine is also trundling happily along......New Wheels/Additional Pick Ups/Decoder and Keep Alive are all contribuiting I guess:lol:

Gormo.......glad you enjoyed the the thread...........I am not very techy but I am pretty certain that capacitors will not work with DC ...............additional pick ups however will for sure!

Regards



____________________
John
Granby III
Lenz DCC ,RR&Co Gold V9.0 A4 Windows 10
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Jan 29th, 2014 09:54 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 16th post
Sol
A modelling Moderator.


Joined: Mon Nov 28th, 2011
Location: Evanston Gardens, South Aust, Australia
Posts: 3846
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

gormo wrote: G
                  
I would also like to ask about capacitors for stay alive. Would this work on DC and what size capacitor would be necessary....?????


Cheers Gormo

Brian, they would have to be non-electrolytic capacitors to work- the link below explains it

http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25001

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/226534/2524113.aspx



____________________
Ron
NCE DCC ; 00 scale UK outline.
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Wed Jan 29th, 2014 10:39 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 17th post
gormo
Full Member


Joined: Fri Dec 21st, 2012
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2073
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Thanks John & Ron,
                             I`ll read up on the info in the links.
Cheers Brian



____________________
"Anyone who claims to have never made a mistake, never made anything!!"

https://sites.google.com/site/greatchesterfordmodelrailway/home
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

 Posted: Thu Jan 30th, 2014 03:29 am
PMQuoteReply
link to this 18th post
BCDR
Moderator


Joined: Sat Oct 19th, 2013
Location: Reston, Virginia USA
Posts: 2936
Status: 
Offline

My photos:
view photos in Gallery
view photos as slides

Hi All,

Intrigued by the use of a stay-alive for DC I did some reading as I've never been that happy with mine (if all else fails read the instructions kind of approach). The main function of a stay-alive seems to be smoothing small voltage changes during running, not providing enough current to take the engine over a poor section of track. From what I've read a good stay-alive will provide around 200 ms of power at best for an engine. Fine if you're belting along at a scale 80 mph, not so fine when trundling along at 2-4 mph. Which is what I found when evaluating the one I have. Running over a dirty section of track still resulted in the sound cutting out. I've also found that removing them from DCC decoders (e.g. Digitrax) makes not one scrap of difference to running. Most of my sound decoders are LokSound, which have capacitance on the board anyway, and don't need an additional capacitor, so maybe I've been spoiled. Apparently a capacitor for DC will be around the size (and here I quote as my idea of electronics is plug it in and see if it works so I'm quite prepared to be corrected) of "half a toilet roll". RMWeb has plenty of discussion (and opinion) on this question (even the size of the toilet roll).

As mentioned previously, clean wheels and track goes a long way to resolving current issues (DC and DCC). I would also add that wiring track every 3 feet or so, and using the largest bus wire possible (12-14 gauge) to reduce voltage drop, especially on large layouts with lots of switch work, gives a better return regarding running than a stay-alive. The non-powered bogie on the Lima model is compensated, so any slight unevenness in the level of the track shouldn't affect running. The other thing I've noted is that for DC and DCC operation a flywheel (the bigger the better) helps a lot (assuming you can get one in the engine).

Back to John's topic. A flywheel is not really feasible for a Lima GWR diesel railcar (well, it is but it's a major rebuild with the motor and flywheel going where the weight is, cardan shafts and geared, low-profile bogies, in fact just like the real thing), so clean wheels, good pick-up on all wheels with uniform surface contact, polish all brass/phosphor-bronze contact surfaces (or do as Richard Johnson of DCC Concepts suggests and solder a bit of jeweler's gold wire to the end of the wiper, I keep meaning to try this one), clean track and constant voltage around the layout are probably the major points for smooth operation.

Nigel



____________________
©Nigel C. Phillips
Back To Top PMQuoteReply

This is topic ID = 11955     Current time is 06:25 pm  
You are here:  Your Model Railway Club > More Practical Help > Members Projects > On Members Workbenches. > Granby Rolling Stock .......an occasional thread
You can type a quick reply to this topic here. Click in the box below to begin.

Or to reply to an individual post, or to include images, attachments and formatted text,
click the Quote or Reply buttons on each post above.

To start a new topic in this forum, click the Start New Topic button below.
To start a new topic in a different forum, click the Forum Jump drop-down list below.
Start New Topic


Back to top of page

           
15 Most Recent Topics

Problems with this web site? Please contact the Webmaster.

All material submitted to this web site is the responsibility of the respective contributor. By submitting material to this web site you acknowledge that you accept full responsibility for the material submitted.
Unless stated otherwise, all the material displayed on this web site, including all text, photographs, drawings and other images, is copyright and the property of the respective contributor. Registered members are welcome to use it for their own personal non-commercial modelmaking purposes. It must not be reproduced or re-published elsewhere in any form, or used commercially, without first obtaining the owner's express permission.
The owner of this web site may edit, modify or remove any content at any time without giving notice or reason.    © 2008

                 

Recent Topics Back to top of page

Powered by UltraBB 1.15 Copyright © 2007-2011 by Jim Hale and Data 1 Systems. Page design copyright © 2008-2013 Martin Wynne. Photo gallery copyright © 2009 David Williams.