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Silo HO Scale - Scratchbuilding. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 03:19 am
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Marty
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Great dedication to the subject Wayne. Thanks for the pictures and descriptions of the process. Invaluable tips and hints to us all.
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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 02:44 am
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Wayne Williams
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Here is a series of pictures which outlines 5 plus hours of testing. :evil: I had several pictures of failed attempts that I chose not to show on here. Not that they were embarrassing, just were not even close to what I wanted. :oops: :shock: :lol:

This first picture shows the scribe lines that have been painted with black paint. Black paint was not thinned with water. I had tried thinning it, but that did not make the lines dark enough.



In fact after a few hours of testing I figured out that even these lines were not black enough, so another coat of black was applied. The black paint was just brushed over the entire area and then immediately wiped off with a paper towel.
The smudges you see had me concerned for a little while, but as time wore on it became obvious that they just helped give the appearance of weathering, and in most cases completely disappeared.


This shows one of my favorite failures. :evil: This is what I was waiting for to arrive from a purchase off the internet. It is "Z" scale ballast. I am only showing this picture because I wanted to show everyone why this did not work. Once I began putting washes over this, it completely erased the black scribe lines. The surface wasn't real bad, but maybe just a little bit out of scale for the concrete look I needed. I actually found a way to separate the larger specks from the real small ones, but that did not help the main problem of the scribe lines.



The next post will show what I feel is the final design for making styrene plastic look like concrete Silo blocks.

Wayne



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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 03:14 am
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Wayne Williams
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Lessons learned, Don't make these posts so long. I accidently wiped out a half hour of work trying to put in a lot of photos. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: So from now on, shorter posts. :D

Here begins another 5 hours of testing panels. I began with two coats of black paint that were immediately wiped off and were set aside to dry between coats. Using the same formula as I have previously posted, I added more water to it to create a thinner wash than what I have used before. This was necessary because of trying to keep the black scribe line showing through until the end of all the washes. This first picture is a wash with talc powder puffed onto the surface immediately. I found it was important to blow off as much of the talc immediately as possible. The object here is to put a thin coating of talc over the entire surface without thick clumps.



Here is the first wash that went over the talc. I have also added four blocks that were paint with a thinned out burnt umber, as an experiment to add weathering as I went along.



Now the second wash over the talc. You can see how the black scribe lines are slowly disappearing. Even the painted blocks are fading.



After studying the prototype photos more closely, I decided to add more colored blocks, to see how different colors looked under the washes. The brighter colors, to be honest, are just wild guesses, that actually will turn out better than I expected. It did give me a good feeling for what I can and cannot get away with in this regard.



The third wash over the talc is beginning to have the desired look. At this point I truly believed that I had screwed up with the bright colors. :evil:



And the fourth wash over the talc. The black of the scribe lines are now virtually gone!



Since the black lines are now gone, I decided to keep trying to cover those bright blocks with a wash to try and subdue them. Here is the picture that shows the wash applied over just those four blocks.



And here is those four block with another wash over them.



Here is the Prototype photo again for your reference.



I am satisfied with these results, as far as the base concrete colors and texture is concerned. I believe that if I were to move the colored block back down under more layers of the wash it would help. So my next test panel will do just that. I will place the colored block right over the exposed talc, then begin the washes. I would like to limit the washes to four only, as that level seems to have the best view of those scribe lines.

Time to go to bed as I'm the only one still awake in this house! And I still made a long post. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wayne



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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 01:08 pm
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Gwent Rail
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Hi Wayne, like you, I think that the fourth wash is giving you the best look and would be my choice.

The reminder picture of the original is a timely post, as one tends to forget how it looks when it's not sat beside the screen :!:

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 Posted: Tue Feb 12th, 2008 06:33 pm
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I'm absolutely with Jeff on this one Wayne - both regarding the 4th wash and with the re-post of the prototype - I'd completely forgotten how "visible" the block joins were. Go for it (if Dad agrees - I seem to remember you said he was coming over !!)

Petermac



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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 12:29 am
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Wayne Williams
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Petermac wrote:I'm absolutely with Jeff on this one Wayne - both regarding the 4th wash and with the re-post of the prototype - I'd completely forgotten how "visible" the block joins were. Go for it (if Dad agrees - I seem to remember you said he was coming over !!)

Petermac


Yep! Dad is here!!!! Mom too! He spent those 10 hours right at my side, trying to help figure out what to do next. Dad seems to think we have it nailed right now. Me too, sort of, anyway.

It is one thing to paint up a flat card, and another to do the same thing on a cylinder!!! So my next testing session will be to make another cylinder the size of the Silo, scribe it (much more sloppily though) and then see how each step reacts to being on a circle instead of flat. For instance, I am not sure I can apply the wash over the entire cylinder at once and put on the talc, before something dries on me. If it dries then the talc won't stick. If too much runs off the talc may not stick. So lots of work still to do. Just remember, it's only one step at a time! That's how you get to the finish line! :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol:

One note here while I'm posting this. I tried painting the wire rings (that go around the outside of the Silo) with burnt umber straight from the bottle. It really looked all rusted up, and didn't seem to enlarge the wire by much. That is another thing I must test, the holes that have been pre-punched, must remain open and visible after all the washes and talc have been installed. Always something!

Wayne



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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 08:47 am
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Petermac
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Wayne - I take my hat off to you - I really do !! To build 1 silo is a magnificent achievement but to build a second - to practice on- is unbelievable !!

Petermac



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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 09:40 am
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Perry
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Now I'm starting to feel guilty about encouraging you to have a go at scratchbuilding. I shouldn't have done it, Wayne. I'm sorry. :( I know how addictive it is and I knew how easily you'd get hooked. :shock: :lol: :lol:

You really have given this project your all. My suggestion of doing a test piece or two before painting only really meant a dab or two of colour on a couple of scraps of plastikard, but you seem to have taken paint trials to a whole new level. :shock:

The time and care you have taken will pay off. Your model will be truly unique and is something to be really proud of. Well done on a splendid project.

Perry



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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 12:18 pm
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Wayne Williams
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Guys, all I'm going to do is take a flat sheet of styrene (same thickness as Silo) and literally throw in scribe lines ( not measured) and wrap it in a circle and bond the edges. Just a tube! Not a Silo! No dome, base, or structure. I just need to practice on the rounded surface with the wash and talc.

I just looked at my time log, I have spent 72 hours to build the Silo, I would not sit down and go through that again! Well, on a different project I would, but not another Silo!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wayne



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 Posted: Wed Feb 13th, 2008 06:37 pm
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Wayne

I think you are almost there with the techniques you are developing. I note how you are losing the black wash in the scribed areas as you apply the texture. Would it be worth painting the surface with your texture and then applying the black wash afterwards? This is the way I do my brickwork, although not as complex as the effect you are attempting. This may achieve the result you seek, although I am not sure how a wash would react to the textured surface. Might be worth a go though?

Bob(K)

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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 12:27 am
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Wayne Williams
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Novice wrote:Wayne

I think you are almost there with the techniques you are developing. I note how you are losing the black wash in the scribed areas as you apply the texture. Would it be worth painting the surface with your texture and then applying the black wash afterwards? This is the way I do my brickwork, although not as complex as the effect you are attempting. This may achieve the result you seek, although I am not sure how a wash would react to the textured surface. Might be worth a go though?

Bob(K)


Bob(K), I will give it a try on one of my test pieces. If that works, you have saved the day. I have just run into a new problem. This problem stems from my inexperience in scratchbuilding. I just found out that I have been testing all of my test pieces using the shinny side of the styrene card. My Silo however, has the dull side on the outside of the Silo. When I made my test cylinder with the dull side out, the first thing I had to do was to add the black paint to fill in the scribe lines. When I did this, I could barely wipe off the black paint from the dull surface. The surface of the styrene is now a medium grey color, not white. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: Plus the black paint did not stay in the scribe lines at all, due to the amount of rubbing I had to do to get the black paint off. :shock: :evil: :twisted: :roll:

I could not come up with any other way to get around this problem, until I read your post here. :D So I will now give it a try. If it doesn't work, I have convinced myself to go forward without using the black paint at all, since as you have said, the black scribe lines are gone anyway. Here's keeping my fingers crossed!!!

Thanks,

Wayne



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 Posted: Thu Feb 14th, 2008 01:22 am
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Marty
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Wayne,
I add my black washes after any other paint job and make the wash really, really watery (diluted). The watery wash runs into the grooves of whatever I'm painting and I don't wipe off at all.
The water dries and the black pigment stays in the groove.
If it is too light, I just give it another coat, chasing the wash around with the brush until I've got it into the places I want it.
Might be worth trying.
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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 01:24 pm
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Wayne Williams
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Marty, thats for the tip, but it did not work. The problem was the talc texture, it absorbed the wash big time! Darkened the whole thing! :shock:

I have tried everything to keep the black scribe lines showing, but nothing has worked. So, on with the program, I just will not make them black. I have other duties coming up today and this weekend, (company coming) so I will begin again on Monday. :evil:

Wayne



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 Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 02:50 pm
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Keep at Wayne, dont lose heart - your doing a great job and you will have a Eureka moment I have no doubt and it will all fall into place!!

I have had a further look on the net and dug up a reference to Games Workshop RoughCoat� - Textured Spray - see the link below :

http://www.amera.co.uk/forms/VAC_FORMweb.pdf

Apparently the game workshop spray isnt sold in the US but I have also found the following links :

http://paint-and-supplies.hardwarestore.com/49-266-decorative-spray-paint/american-accents-spray-paint-604289.aspx               Defunct Link   

http://www.craftsetc.com/store/item.aspx?ItemId=41689&dep=50&cat=60&subcat=50&Search=Y



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 12:49 am
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Marty
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OK, useful to know that the talc absorbs the wash, should have thought of that one.
I reckon that the silo will look great without the scribe lines highlighted. I can see you are going in the right direction, some of those previous tests really looked the business.
Might have to bite the bullet and accept a compromise as I have had to with my trees.
cheers



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 08:29 am
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Wayne,

You're going to hate me, but I'm now going to go against just about everything that has been said about the paint finish for the silo. I have looked at the photo of prototype again and at the images of your textured test-pieces, and I'm not convinced that it is the best way to go. Sorry. :(

My reasons for this are:

1. The scribe lines really need to be visible to get the effect shown on the prototype. Anything that obscures them will, I feel, be detrimental to the overall final effect.

2. To my eyes, the texture you are applying still looks too coarse and I think the model would look better by concentrating on the subtlety of the colours and the relief of the scribed lines. There is a lot of minor variation in colour visible on the prototype that would be hard to achieve with the texture finish proposed.

You certainly haven't wasted your time by carrying out the texture experiments as I'm sure that they have provided valuable experience that will be useful in the future, but I would urge you not to use it on this occasion.

I fully appreciate that the final decision is yours and yours alone, but I felt obliged to convey my views to you before that decision is made.

I hope you will accept these comments in the constructive manner in which they are intended and that you will not be offended by them.

Just trying to help! :wink: :D

Perry



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 01:08 pm
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Wayne Williams
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Marty and Perry,

Now there's two different opinions! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yesterday I agreed with Marty, day before with Perry, today ???? :evil: :roll: :D

You won't believe this but while I was reading both of your posts, I had another idea. I do want to be able to see the lines, always have wanted that. So my idea was to use a fine tip ink pen or felt tip pen and redraw over the scribe lines. I happened to have an ink pen, so I just tried it. Worked great! I am drawing over a washed gesso coating, which I believe helped. I now need to test how the ink reacts to the washes. Will try and get to that soon, probably next monday though. Will let you all know what happens.

Thank You Both for your comments. My head is in the clouds, and my butt is scrapping the ground. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wayne



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 Posted: Sat Feb 16th, 2008 01:23 pm
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Marty
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I reckon it's up to you now mate.
If you can hightlight the scribe lines there is no doubt in my mind that it will enhance the model.
Have fun.



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 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 07:34 pm
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Wayne Williams
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Monday finally got here and I have made significant progress with figuring out how to paint this Silo. I have nine pictures to show everyone and will post them in three different posts, so I don't lose anything!

This series will show you what I have done to the test cylinder before any concrete color is added. The very top and bottom of this test should be ignored by everyone :shock: Those areas are what is commonly called failed tests. :roll: So the spots to concentrate on are the middle colored and upper colored areas. What I am trying to accomplish with these are the subtle colored blocks of the Silo, using the previously posted prototype picture. The hope is (based upon previous testing) that the colors will become very faded out as the concrete washes are added.

The top two rows of the colors are identical, the next two rows are also identical, but have one extra drop of Ivory White added to the mix of the top two rows.



This picture is showing the right side of the test area where I have tried dabbing on some other colors, just as another type of test. I can see on the prototype picture where a few blocks actually have what looks like green mold or algae on it, so I tried some green paint here also.



And here is a close up of an area where I am trying to fix some errors in applying the black lines with an ink pen. the problem with trying to draw in the lines with an ink pen is staying on the line! The pen slipped in a few spots, so I drew an X over two blocks to see if I could "make it go away" with the washes. In this photo I have already painted over those two blocks with straight white gesso. As you can see it did not do well in covering up the X's.



The next series will be putting on the Talc.

Wayne



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 Posted: Mon Feb 18th, 2008 07:43 pm
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If you post your images like this Wayne with the prototype alongside we can see much better how you are getting on. I know this is going to cause a bit of scrolling for some of us but I do think it is worthwhile for your model because you are putting so much time and effort into it. Looking at the prototype as it is shown here is this the colour you are after or was the picture taken on a dark day and the colour is in fact much lighter than shown. Just a thought.





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