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Petermac
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Elsewhere, I've highlighted the problems I'm having trying to get a reasonable performance from my Bachmann "DCC On Board" Pannier tank loco.

I've looked aeround but can't find any advice on where to set the various CV's on this particular loco for optimum performance - others are listed but not this one.

I'm pretty sure I can't change the top speed (CV5) but 2,3,4 and probably 6 can be re-programmed.

Has anyone any experience with this loco and, if so, what values would give me a reasonably prototypical performance for this type of locomotive ?

I could of course, change the chip but if practical, I'd rather keep the existing one in there ................:roll:

In asking this question, it might prove very useful to have a list of settings used by members for the different locos to which we "beginners", can refer.  At least then, we'd have a starting point .........;-)

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Does this pdf help at all?

http://www.bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/DCC_onboard_general.pdf

Petermac
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Thanks Diablo - it does help a great deal but I find it hard to believe that ALL locos use the same settings ..........:roll::roll:

Assuming they always use the same decoder, common sense would suggest that there ought to be a different value for the main CV's for different locos.  I wouldn't expect to see my little Pannier giving the same performance as a big mainline loco - allowing for the different motor of course.

I'd certainly want to limit the top speed (the chart in your link suggests it is re-programmable but I don't think it is) and I'd want a different speed curve.

I'll see what happens when I re-set the defaults ..............:hmm

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One big problem is that the Bachmann panniers have so many different chassis fitted- some very indifferent .
There are a few useful pages , linked from here - not for the pannier though, but maybe of some help.
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/service/dug.php

Have you remembered to run the locomotive in before really getting to try and set CV's?

Last edited on Tue Aug 28th, 2012 02:18 pm by diablo

Petermac
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I did run the loco in Diablo because at that tmie, I didn't have a controller that allowed me to alter CV's - just the EZ Command.

Interestingly from that Bachmann link, it does depend which chip is fitted to the loco.  I have no idea what's in the Pannier but their EZ 36-552 decoder doesn't seem to allow you to alter either CV5 or CV6 so, from the perfomance I'm getting, I'd guess it's that one in mine.

Also, the defaults are different from those on your previous post.

As I said, it's no great problem really, just the £10 odd for the factory fitted decoder plus the £20 odd for a reasonable replacement - should I decide to swap it.  That does however, almost double the original cost of the loco ................:roll::roll::roll::roll:

Take note those who are thinking of buying DCC Ready locos - buy the DCC Ready version and plug your own, better quality chip, in to it - you'll save a copper or two and get far better performance !!!!

Naturally, I'm not talking about sound locos here - I understand they're usually pretty good although I've never bought one.  I have a friendly "sound engineer" in Australia who does mine ...................:cool wink

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Hi Peter

Could you point me to the thread about Panniers please?........meantime:

I suspect that the decoder is the same as the one I installed on 3 new panniers last fall.

These are the settings I used to get adequate performance on Granby .....Bachmann default in brackets

CV 2   Start Voltage                             3                            (3)

CV 3    Acceleration                             3                             (8)

CV 5    Max Speed                              10                          (63)

CV 54  Back EMF                                 27                          (32)

CV 55     "                                           29                          (24) 

This gave a max scale speed of 30 mph.......operationally I rarely go above 20 mph with Panniers

The downside is the inability to alter CV 6 the mid range voltage.......which means you can only get a straight line speed curve.........not the concave curve which gives you slower acceleration initially.

I got ok performance but found the sraight line curve to be a real pain with RR&Co where other locos running the same routine had better chips.....and in the end took them out and replaced them with Lenz.......more expensive but ,in my view, well worth it.

I may use them on some other locos where crawl speed and accurate stopping is less essential

Hopefully you may find these helpful if only as a start point..............I tend to do all this by trial and error remembering always that I can do a factory reset :roll:

:cheers

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Thanks for that John - Ill see what difference it makes. :thumbs

There isn't actually a thread on Panniers, it's just tagged on to the end of one of my existing threads here :

   http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10218&forum_id=13&jump_to=185100#p185100

You'll remember I'm well known for becoming confused so I thought I'd share my symptoms .................:cool wink

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Ah .......one of your all embracing threads:lol:    Your double slips will be Code 100 insulfrog like mine?  They can be a problem and in some instances I have to ratchet the speed up a bit to get the panniers through.

Assuming the wheels and pick ups are clean and you are satisfied thats not the issue I would fiddle with the CVs to optimise the slow speed performance.......it can be quite therapeutic with a glass of chateau plonk (no doubt something better in your case)

If it still doesnt work bite the bullet and get a better chip and put the installed one in a loco with more pick ups that isnt used too often   

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The double slips are indeed Code 100 Insulfrogs John.  I don't think they do electrofrog doubles .......:roll:

I suspect you're right about the chip.  The more I think about it, the more I realise an 0-6-0 needs all the help it can get and a poor quality decoder isn't the way to go.

Are all your other points electro ?  I've always avoided those because of me electrical inaptitude but I may have to have a re-think.  There's no point in having a super-duper control system if the bits of plastic are going to let you down.  It's the slow running that's so impressive to me with DCC.

I'm going to have a play with those CV's now .....................;-) 

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Petermac wrote: Are all your other points electro ?  I've always avoided those because of me electrical inaptitude but I may have to have a re-think.  There's no point in having a super-duper control system if the bits of plastic are going to let you down.  It's the slow running that's so impressive to me with DCC.

I'm going to have a play with those CV's now .....................;-) 

I have a few legacy insulfrog points used in out of the way sidings but otherwise everything is electrofrog............I would strongly recommend them..........one less area of poor contact to worry about.

I was going to mention this in your layout thread but now seems opportune...........have you made a decision about point motors yet?  If you are undecided about Electro/Insul you should make that decision first because polarity switching is an issue to take into account...................I switched to Tortoise (although I use Peco for insul frog) and again that was a decision I have never regretted

Anyone who can chip a split chassis by correspondence course should not be the least worried about electrofrog points:lol:

Are you powering the points by a separate power bus? How will you be switching them?


 

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At present John, all are operated by the "hand from the sky" but I do need to get motors fitted - it's a bit stupid walking around to switch points when I have such "remote" fun with the locos !!

Having read lots on here about motors, I had decided Tortoise (or Cobalt) is the way to go but the price rather makes my eyes water ....

Because I stupidly forgot to drill any holes in the baseboard for motors on the double slips (rushing without thinking ahead :oops:
), they will have to be operated by surface mounted Peco motors.  On the other hand,  I do have a signal box to place so I could probably hide the odd motor or two under that and have some kind of remote linkage to a couple of them.

If I remember rightly, Tortoise and Cobalt are already equipped with micro switches to change polarity.........:roll::roll:

The motors will be powered by a separate bus - probably running from either an old DC controller or a dedicated transformer.

It's all these "electrical thingies" I need to get down to planning - along with some kind of panel with track diagrams etc. .......:hmm

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Petermac wrote: At present John, all are operated by the "hand from the sky" but I do need to get motors fitted - it's a bit stupid walking around to switch points when I have such "remote" fun with the locos !!

This is perhaps a topic in itself............you will need either a switchboard with switches (Ron will know the name) or studs.......... alternatively you do it by DCC using Lenz LS 150s.......I started doing both but now use DCC exclusively primarily because of RR & Co

You do need to make a call here soon!  Stud and probe is probably the cheapest and easiest and relatively simple to convert later if you wish

Having read lots on here about motors, I had decided Tortoise (or Cobalt) is the way to go but the price rather makes my eyes water ....

Excellent......absolutely the right choice.........I added up the cost of the motor and the switch and a fraction of the time wasted with switch failure and my eyes stopped watering!

You may want to post a which is best thread........a few people have had problems with Cobalt

Both are quite deep......you may need to take clearances into account



Because I stupidly forgot to drill any holes in the baseboard for motors on the double slips (rushing without thinking ahead :oops:
), they will have to be operated by surface mounted Peco motors.  On the other hand,  I do have a signal box to place so I could probably hide the odd motor or two under that and have some kind of remote linkage to a couple of them.



Pas de probleme! The surface mounted Peco motors are quite decorative and will not need disguising (See Ro and Ricks layout threads).......they are finicky to install to get the sweet spot for the throw.......I have done both on Granby when previously installed below surface Pecos failed



If I remember rightly, Tortoise and Cobalt are already equipped with micro switches to change polarity.........:roll::roll:

Correct.......apart from the more authentic blade movement thats the big plus....see above


The motors will be powered by a separate bus - probably running from either an old DC controller or a dedicated transformer.

Perfect

It's all these "electrical thingies" I need to get down to planning - along with some kind of panel with track diagrams etc. .......:hmm

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Thanks for that John - thread on point motors started. :thumbs

I'm a bit of a knobs and dials person so motor control will be more "conventional" than the Lenz LS150 - for now at least .............:roll:

Because of the above, I think I will go down the "switch" route rather than the stud and probe.  I also think it's a bit easier to follow the route setting by throwing switches - a bit more "positive" for my aged brain !!  As I think I've said before, I'm more of a "mechanic" than an "electrician" ............:???:   I have a vision of LED's showing the route on a panel but, at present, it is just a "vision" ........:hmm


There will be no "double decking" anywhere where there is pointwork so, unless the motors are over 3ft deep, there shouldn't be any problems with clearances. :cheers

Re-setting the CV's on the Pannier has improved it considerably but it does still run away with itself .........  It seems to run at a suitable speed on throttle notch 5.  Any higher, and it's off.  Maybe the decoder only has 14 speed notches .......:roll::roll::roll:

I think I'm going to have to swap it for another TCS like the one fitted to the V2.  As you say, I can use it elsewhere and it hardly cost me much hard earned cash :cheers


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Hi Peter

I thought I would reply to your post about CV settings here.

V2..........these are the settings .........TCS default in brackets

 CV 2   Start                                    1       (0)

CV 5    Max                                    100     (0)

CV 6    Mid Point                              0       (0)

Looking at this I suspect I didnt change the settings from the previous loco (an ineffective County) so I may make some adjustments later but for now, as I said, the performance was fine.
 

Pannier.....did you reset all the CVs I listed?     CV 5 set to 10 should have controlled  the max speed and the changes to 54 and 55 should have adjusted the Back EMF to account for a the size of the Pannier (the default settings by Bachmann are one size fits all)

Upgrading the chip is a good idea but meantime fiddling/experimenting with the CVs on both the main (F7) and programming track (F8)  isnt a bad learning experience.

I standardised my panniers on the 2 function Lenz Standard and I can thoroughly reccommend them.....they are about the same price or even less than a DP2X and very easy to fine tune.

Am away until Monday......last boat trip

:cheers:cheers

Last edited on Fri Aug 31st, 2012 05:19 pm by John Dew

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Hi Peter, are you sitting comfortably, large glass of a red liquid in hand - good.
I have two Bachmann 3F Jinty's. One fitted with a Hornby R8249 decoder and the other with DC Concepts Stay alive decoder, there is a noticable improvement in loco handling. With no changes to the default settings the DC Concepts slow handling is a lot better - at twice the price I suppose it should be. But both still are not happy with insulfrog double slips.

Now take a good gulp of the red stuff.
Using a pin vice with a drill small enough to fit through the point tie bar hole, dirll through the tie bar hole, and on through the underlay and baseboard. Now throw the point the other way and do the same again. On the underside of the base board join the dots with a pencil. Now for the tricky bit, probably best avoiding the red stuff now, I use a Dental burr in a dremel remove the base board material, stopping when you get to the underlay ( I use 6 mm ply for the baseboard top, with 4mm foam insulation for the underlay). I then used a scalpel to cut away the underlay enough to gain access to the tie to allow a seep point motor to operate the point.

For point control I use MERG DCC accessory Decoder (Pulse Outputs).  Powered from the 16v AC from an 40year old H&M Duette. Only the command signal is used from the DCC output, which is handy as I use an NCE PowerCab.

Go on grasshopper, you know you can do it.

Paul

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That sounds like an excellent solution Paul- why didn't I think of it ....................:roll::roll:

I'll certainly give that one a bash - I need a new excuse to open a bottle .........."Just doing points darling" .............:doublethumb:cheers.


John, I did reset all the CV's you mentioned.  I did expect the top speed to be reduced dramatically but it's not.  I'll have another "play" and see what I can achieve.

Thanks also for the V2 CV's - I'll try those out too. :thumbs

Enjoy your sail - is she lifted out for the winter ?

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Petermac wrote:
John, I did reset all the CV's you mentioned.  I did expect the top speed to be reduced dramatically but it's not.  I'll have another "play" and see what I can achieve.

Thanks also for the V2 CV's - I'll try those out too. :thumbs


That is weird Peter.......................did you "read" the CVs back on the Programming track to check they had changed? Alternatively you could  try CV 5 at say   100    then  50     then  20 and finally 10 if there isnt a noticable difference in the top speed maybe the decoder is duff

If you havent seen this thread it may be of interest.......if only because of the comments about Lenz standard


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60802-tcs-dp2x-uk-in-a-bachmann-pannier-setting-up-for-shunting/page__fromsearch__1



Enjoy your sail - is she lifted out for the winter ?
It was a great week end thank you.......although it was a bit breezy at times on the open water.......It was a sort of last of the summer wine fun regatta.

  We dont haul out here......nowadays we winterise the boat but the club holds both cruises and races thru fall and winter with evocative names like Snowflake, Iceberg and Hot Rum which we used to do (I remember cleaning snow out of the cockpit of the 24' boat we used to race...........I am now older and wiser.......and there is too much modelling to do!

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I did read them all back John and yes, they had all changed. :???::???:

I had another go last night and used the following settings:

CV 2 - 20
    3 -   5
    4 -   6
    5 - 50
    6 - 20

54 and 55 were left at 27 and 29 respectively.

The result was, she "hummed" on throttles 1 to 3 but virtually no movement, at 4 she sort of inched forward very slowly - almost as if she had dirty wheels, on 5 she accelerated quite rapidly to a decent "yard" speed.  The maximum throttle at which she ran realistically was around 8 or 10.

What I need her to do is:  Start moving (visibly) on lower throttle settings - 1 or 2
                                     Be more responsive to the bottom end throttle settings - I think what I mean is closer but noticable speed changes on the low end throttles for shunting duties.

I can easily live with using a maximum speed limit of around throttle 9 or 10 provided she's more responsive to the lower numbers.  It's at the bottom end that she's so disappointing.  I actually don't know which decoder is in the beastie so don't know how many speed steps there are.  Is this "readable" ?

I also ran the V2 and there's definitely a problem with the trailing bogie.  I'm reasonably happy with the CV's but I'll have to examine the wheels on that bogie.  It almost always derails on points in reverse and sometimes forwards.  I may have to replace the wheels because one of them doesn't seem to be round .....................:roll::roll:

It's worth bearing in mind that I don't, at the moment,  have a long run to test on so can't let them "have their heads".

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Petermac wrote: I did read them all back John and yes, they had all changed. :???::???:

Sorry ......just checking


I had another go last night and used the following settings:

CV 2 - 20
    3 -   5
    4 -   6
    5 - 50
    6 - 20.....................I didnt know you could change CV 6 with the supplied decoder...see earlier posts......its not listed in the on board PDF............are you certain about this? If it is available a decent speed curve is achievable

54 and 55 were left at 27 and 29 respectively.

The result was, she "hummed" on throttles 1 to 3 but virtually no movement, at 4 she sort of inched forward very slowly - almost as if she had dirty wheels, on 5 she accelerated quite rapidly to a decent "yard" speed.  The maximum throttle at which she ran realistically was around 8 or 10.

She crawled ok on DC? The wheels and track are clean? The pick ups are ok?


What I need her to do is:  Start moving (visibly) on lower throttle settings - 1 or 2
                                     Be more responsive to the bottom end throttle settings - I think what I mean is closer but noticable speed changes on the low end throttles for shunting duties.

I can easily live with using a maximum speed limit of around throttle 9 or 10 provided she's more responsive to the lower numbers.  It's at the bottom end that she's so disappointing.  I actually don't know which decoder is in the beastie so don't know how many speed steps there are.  Is this "readable" ?

CV 29 Bit 1     1 = 28/128 speed steps which is the default             0 = 14 speed steps

I think the issue here is .....how much time do you want to spend on what, I think, we have agreed is not a very good decoder........particularly if you intend to replace it with a better one.

It is however a good learning exercise and if you are stubborn like me and dont want to be beaten by the chip this is what I would do

Reset all the CVs to the factory default............set  CV 8 to 08 (incidentally the sheet says the decoder may have been shipped with settings other than the default!!!:shock::shock::shock:)  Nevertheless I would do this.....a reset does help sometimes

Remember you will have to re enter the loco address or use 03
 
Then I would just focus on establishing the correct value for the start voltage by advancing it in increments until it just crawls at speed step 1..............once this is done we can fine tune the other CVs


I also ran the V2 and there's definitely a problem with the trailing bogie.  I'm reasonably happy with the CV's but I'll have to examine the wheels on that bogie.  It almost always derails on points in reverse and sometimes forwards.  I may have to replace the wheels because one of them doesn't seem to be round .....................:roll::roll:

I had this trouble initially it went away when I tightened the retaining screw a little. The wheels can be removed easily I recall............I would "borrow" a set from your 2-6-2 tank and see if that works



It's worth bearing in mind that I don't, at the moment,  have a long run to test on so can't let them "have their heads".

PS thank you so much for your swift and helpful response to my PM .....I will reply shortly

Kind Regards



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John Dew wrote: Petermac wrote: I did read them all back John and yes, they had all changed. :???::???:

Sorry ......just checking


I had another go last night and used the following settings:

CV 2 - 20
    3 -   5
    4 -   6
    5 - 50
    6 - 20.....................I didnt know you could change CV 6 with the supplied decoder...see earlier posts......its not listed in the on board PDF............are you certain about this? If it is available a decent speed curve is achievable

It appears to be changeable John - at least, when I alter it and read back, I get my new values........

54 and 55 were left at 27 and 29 respectively.

The result was, she "hummed" on throttles 1 to 3 but virtually no movement, at 4 she sort of inched forward very slowly - almost as if she had dirty wheels, on 5 she accelerated quite rapidly to a decent "yard" speed.  The maximum throttle at which she ran realistically was around 8 or 10.

She crawled ok on DC? The wheels and track are clean? The pick ups are ok?

She was bought as "DCC Fitted" so I don't know.  Wheels and track have been thoroughly scrubbed with everything I could lay my hands on (and some things I couldn't :roll:).  The only things I haven't checked are the pickups (:oops:) although, as there are probably 6, it's unlikely to be causing too much of a problem.  Nevertheless, I'll double check them ..........


What I need her to do is:  Start moving (visibly) on lower throttle settings - 1 or 2
                                     Be more responsive to the bottom end throttle settings - I think what I mean is closer but noticable speed changes on the low end throttles for shunting duties.

I can easily live with using a maximum speed limit of around throttle 9 or 10 provided she's more responsive to the lower numbers.  It's at the bottom end that she's so disappointing.  I actually don't know which decoder is in the beastie so don't know how many speed steps there are.  Is this "readable" ?

CV 29 Bit 1     1 = 28/128 speed steps which is the default             0 = 14 speed steps

I'll check that - I understand from what I've read, other settings will depend on this ..............(p.s. How do I read the "bits" once I get to CV 29 or do they just appear on screen ? :???:)

I think the issue here is .....how much time do you want to spend on what, I think, we have agreed is not a very good decoder........particularly if you intend to replace it with a better one.

It is however a good learning exercise and if you are stubborn like me and dont want to be beaten by the chip this is what I would do

At the moment, I'm a bit like you John - I bought the thing as DCC and I'd expect it to run pretty reasonably with the chip they sold me but .......I am wavering ...........:???::???:  I really don't want to spend too much more time on it only to find I've got to change the chip anyway .........but I'll give it one or two more attempts.  It is indeed a very good learning exercise - I'm starting to see "performance" rather than meaningless numbers. :thumbs

Reset all the CVs to the factory default............set  CV 8 to 08 (incidentally the sheet says the decoder may have been shipped with settings other than the default!!!:shock::shock::shock:)  Nevertheless I would do this.....a reset does help sometimes

I thought the reset was CV8 to 33 or something .........:shock:

Remember you will have to re enter the loco address or use 03
 
Then I would just focus on establishing the correct value for the start voltage by advancing it in increments until it just crawls at speed step 1..............once this is done we can fine tune the other CVs

That seems like a very sensible move - I'm out tonight but I'll try it tomorrow .............:thumbs


I also ran the V2 and there's definitely a problem with the trailing bogie.  I'm reasonably happy with the CV's but I'll have to examine the wheels on that bogie.  It almost always derails on points in reverse and sometimes forwards.  I may have to replace the wheels because one of them doesn't seem to be round .....................:roll::roll:

I had this trouble initially it went away when I tightened the retaining screw a little. The wheels can be removed easily I recall............I would "borrow" a set from your 2-6-2 tank and see if that works

Another good idea - why didn't I think of that ............:???::???:



It's worth bearing in mind that I don't, at the moment,  have a long run to test on so can't let them "have their heads".

PS thank you so much for your swift and helpful response to my PM .....I will reply shortly

Kind Regards




Many thanks for all your help John and for the earlier RMWeb link - some of those guys don't seem too impressed with the TCS offerings although I'm sure fitting a Lenz Standard (of which I have 2 :thumbs), in here, might be like trying to get a quart into a pint pot .....:hmm

p.s. Do you like the colour scheme in this post ................? :cheers:cheers

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I finally managed to make some headway with the Bachmann Pannier tonight.

Following your advice John, I reset everything to factory defaults then concentrated on CV2 alone.

A value of 23 gave me a "start to move" on throttle 1

Following advice from everyone including here on YMR, DCC Concepts, Bromsgrove Models, Digitrax, Bacnmann and even the dog, I came up with the following values:

CV 2  - 23

CV 3  -  8

CV 4  -  4

CV 5  - 50

CV 6  - 20

CV 54 - 27

CV 55 - 29

She creeps (excluding over the double slips :twisted:) on trottles 1, 2 and 3 with very little difference between them, except she has a little more resiliance on 2 and 3.  4 and 5 produce a handy "yard speed".  6 gives quite a discernable leap but still not "over the top".  7 to 10 gives an acceptable "open country" working speed but much more, and she tends to run away.  My track isn't long enough to see how fast she would go if given her head, so I'm not sure I've been able to limit the top speed.  What I have done, is gain considerably more control over the lower end and that's what I wanted.

Something is however, still evading me.  How do I access and change the bit settings on CV29 ? The overall value of CV 29 is 6 which I'm told is about right but I'd like to look at the individual settings contained in that CV.  There must be lots of them but I think the controller is only reading 2 of them ................

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CV29 is additive. All those bits together add up to your value of 6.  The programmer will not separate out the different bits in the readout.


The first will have a value of, say, 2 and the second will have a value of 4, in your case. Each attribute within CV29 has its own unique values that together add up to whatever the final total is. Off the top of my head I can't remember exactly what values are to do what, except for that first bit with values of 0 or 1 which reverses the direction of travel. Other attributes would have values of 0 or 8, and 0 or 16, then for two or four-digit addressing, 0 or 32.


I (personally - talking about my own DCC stuff here) would add 32 to that total value so I would be using a four-digit address and the value in my pannier would be 38. If I had wired it backwards then I would also have to add 1 to the value, in your case making it 7, in my case, 39, to reverse the direction of motion.


Last edited on Tue Sep 11th, 2012 09:34 am by SRman

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Well at least that is progress.

Assuming for the moment that you are satisfied that the start voltage (2) is now acceptable  I would start adjusting CV 6 , the mid point voltage.

I am still confused about CV 6 on your chip.......according to the guide that Diablo posted (post#2), CV 6 isnt available and that was certainly the case with my cheap Bachmann decoders ...........however as you are able to adjust it set it about 75% of the value of CV 5 that will have the effect of making the speed curve concave ie more speed steps at the start. Its current setting is 40% of CV 5 (20/50)  and this creates a convex curve ie less speed steps at the start which sounds like what you have now.

 Hopefully you will see a marked difference (75% isnt a magic figure I have used higher)

If this works you could then try bringing CV 5 down (and of course CV 6 proportionately).  Re reading the chip guide I am wondering if CV 53 (Back EMF) should be increased to get the speed down 

Not sure why you need to alter CV 29 but the Lenz manual does show you how to read the bits on CV 29

Hope this helps:cheers

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John Dew wrote:

Not sure why you need to alter CV 29 but the Lenz manual does show you how to read the bits on CV 29

Hope this helps:cheers

I've now read the manual ..............................:oops::oops::oops::oops::thumbs

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Ok - I'm now pretty happy with things.

I reset CV6 to 35,  CV 54 to 40, CV 55 to 42 and CV 53 to 62.  According to a Bachmann "generic" decoder spec, the range for these latter two CV's is 0 - 63 and, on that same sheet, there's no mention of CV 5 !!!

Is it possible to programme a value, for it to read out and yet not alter the decoder ?  :hmm

I have good (although, compared to both the Class 47 and the GP 40), not excellent very low speed control - still not a huge difference between Steps 1 and 3 but good enough.  It certainly seems to have got rid of the "hesitation" on step 1.

At step 5, she's beautiful.  A gentle "trundle".

I'm not sure what top speed should look like :oops::oops:  She is slower than she used to be and in fact, probably not far away from a "real" 60mph judging from the time she takes to cross the little bridge on the Maxmill Junction.  As I said earlier, the laid track isn't long enough for her to attain full speed.  From what I've seen, I can't imagine my wanting to operate at much more than step 10 anyway..........:roll:

My aim is to have a train / trains  merrily running around on the lower level circuit - either express or slow goods - whilst I "operate" the slow running stuff on the Maxmill Town spur.  I actually get a kick out of watching them creep along ..............:oops:  When I decide how to operate the coupling, shunting will be great fun.

When my back aches, I can simply sit and watch the lower level through the red haze of a Chateau Latour ..........(or, more likely up there, a Chateau Collapsible:cheers)

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Hi Peter

Consider CV 29 as 8 separate switches which can either be off (0) or on (1) - binary bit.

These switches or bits are added together to form an 8 bit word which in decimal gives a value between 0 and 255.

A better description of each switch setting and a method of calculating the value can be found here

http://www.2mm.org.uk/articles/cv29%20calculator.htm

Paul

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I'm still struggling with fully understanding CV's. :cry::cry:

DCC Concepts attempt to explain it all very well (http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCdecoderfunctionsdesc.htm )
but, as with most things "technical", it seems to assume some existing knowledge and, to me at least, becomes confusing once I move away from the simple "Address" and "Start Volts" etc..................don't alter this without altering that and it will also effect something else etc.etc. .:oops::oops::oops:

Some of the low number CV's seem to depend of how many speed steps the decoder supports. "Divide the speed steps by the track voltage .........."

I checked the details for the Lenz Silver and it seems to support almost all possibilities - certainy 64 or 128.

How do I know what is actually set at the factory ?  It's all within CV29 but how can I read the individual "bits" in there ? I have just noticed that John (Dew) posted that it's in the Lenz manual (:oops::oops:) which is in the attic .........I'll read it next time I'm "on high" ........

Will programming CV29 change the individual bits in a pre-set order ?  i.e.  If I set it to say 7, will it know that I want (for example), bit 1 at 0, bit 2 at 1 and so on until it totals 7 or will it just mess them all up to make 7, whatever the order ?

Also, the DCC Concepts article tells me CV 5 (Max speed), has a default of "0" which is the maximum setting for this CV.  I though "OK, lets just limit the speed of the A3 slightly below the maximum"  so I set it to 3.  It crawled around at a snails pace but setting CV 5 to 258 let her rip.  Does this CV use inverted values - i.e. "0" is Max but "1" is minimum and increasing the value lets the brakes off.

Oh dear, sorry for all this ..........:oops::oops:  Is Ian Morton's DCC for Dummies book a good buy ?  I obviously need to do some homework about it all .............

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Petermac wrote: I'm still struggling with fully understanding CV's. :cry::cry:

DCC Concepts attempt to explain it all very well (http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCdecoderfunctionsdesc.htm )
but, as with most things "technical", it seems to assume some existing knowledge and, to me at least, becomes confusing once I move away from the simple "Address" and "Start Volts" etc..................don't alter this without altering that and it will also effect something else etc.etc. .:oops::oops::oops:

Some of the low number CV's seem to depend of how many speed steps the decoder supports. "Divide the speed steps by the track voltage .........."

I checked the details for the Lenz Silver and it seems to support almost all possibilities - certainy 64 or 128.

How do I know what is actually set at the factory ?  It's all within CV29 but how can I read the individual "bits" in there ? I have just noticed that John (Dew) posted that it's in the Lenz manual (:oops::oops:) which is in the attic .........I'll read it next time I'm "on high" ........

Will programming CV29 change the individual bits in a pre-set order ?  i.e.  If I set it to say 7, will it know that I want (for example), bit 1 at 0, bit 2 at 1 and so on until it totals 7 or will it just mess them all up to make 7, whatever the order ?

Also, the DCC Concepts article tells me CV 5 (Max speed), has a default of "0" which is the maximum setting for this CV.  I though "OK, lets just limit the speed of the A3 slightly below the maximum"  so I set it to 3.  It crawled around at a snails pace but setting CV 5 to 258 let her rip.  Does this CV use inverted values - i.e. "0" is Max but "1" is minimum and increasing the value lets the brakes off.

Oh dear, sorry for all this ..........:oops::oops:  Is Ian Morton's DCC for Dummies book a good buy ?  I obviously need to do some homework about it all .............

What chips are you working with Peter............let me know and I can tell you the Factory defaults if you wish

I never alter the Lenz speed steps the default is 28 ( and maybe 128) and they work fine for me


The Lenz 100 manual shows you how to read and change CV 29.......I use it if I (or Hornby :twisted:) have reverse and Forward muddled.............I think your supposition is correct  but I have always changed the individual bit......math not being my strong point

0 is typically the default for CV 2, 5 and 6.............I dont think it inverts values as such and it doesnt affect braking it contols the supply of voltage to the motor....... but you are correct the higher the value the greater the effect.................CV 5 set at 3 would be very slooooow even for a pale green coloured loco







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The decoder in question John, is the Lenz Silver in the A3.

Whilst I haven't had time today (or tonight - Rotary) to have a "mess", even with CV 5 set at 258 (?), I don't get the speed it had on DC - not that I actually want that speed but I do need more than it's giving at present.

It also seems to "hunt" a little.  I'll check the con-rods to make sure there's nothing binding anywhere - it was a very tight fit getting the body off and it's possible I may have put a little pressure on the linkage somewhere. :roll::oops:

I'm really looking for a "CV's for Dummies" type tutorial so that I can start to understand what I'm doing and how these things work in relation to each other.  Hence my question about Ian Morton's DCC book ........

Whilst it's great ot have all this experience at my fingertips, I'm sure in time, you'll all start wondering if I ever do anything for myself !!!!

I realise your comment about pale green locos and their speed is sheer jealousy John so I won't comment further ......:cheers

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Petermac wrote: The decoder in question John, is the Lenz Silver in the A3.

Whilst I haven't had time today (or tonight - Rotary) to have a "mess", even with CV 5 set at 258 (?), I don't get the speed it had on DC - not that I actually want that speed but I do need more than it's giving at present.

Max CV 5 is probably 255.....................are you talking about an unsatisfactory top speed ie at notch 28 or the manner in which it gets there ie the speed curve.......you need to fiddle with CV 6 as a % of CV 5

Is the crawl speed ok?


It also seems to "hunt" a little.  I'll check the con-rods to make sure there's nothing binding anywhere - it was a very tight fit getting the body off and it's possible I may have put a little pressure on the linkage somewhere. :roll::oops:

Do let me know if you fix this and how you do it.....photos......I am not at all mechanical and I have at least two locos that bind/hop (is that the same as hunt?)......I suspect my bodged attempts to correct the problem has made it worse.

I'm really looking for a "CV's for Dummies" type tutorial so that I can start to understand what I'm doing and how these things work in relation to each other.  Hence my question about Ian Morton's DCC book ........

I found Ian Mortons original book very useful when I first started. Richard Johnson's guide on the DCC Concepts site is very good but it is a bit complicated......you might want to try printing it out and highlighting certain sections.....The bits on adjusting the basic cvs are very good but if I recall they are surrounded by some less useful stuff 

Whilst it's great ot have all this experience at my fingertips, I'm sure in time, you'll all start wondering if I ever do anything for myself !!!!

I realise your comment about pale green locos and their speed is sheer jealousy John so I won't comment further ......:cheers

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As I mentioned in John's thread, I have fitted 12 Lenz decoders now. In every case I did not change ANY CVs other than CV1 for the address and every loco works just fine.

I suggest, Peter, that with your A3 you reset the Silver to factory defaults for a start - program 33 into CV 8.

Then program in the address you want into CV1, and try the loco again.

The default Minimum speed is 0 (CV2), which means that zero power is fed to the motor at speed step 1 on the controller.

The default Maximum speed is 255 (CV5), which means that the full voltage available is fed to the motor at speed step 28.

The default Mid speed is 60 (CV6), which causes the decoder to set a smooth parabolic like curve of speed increase from no movement of the motor at speed step 1 on the controller through to maximum speed at speed step 28 on the controller.

For me, this works absolutely fine. No need for any changes at all.

If your loco is still not going as fast on DCC as it was on DC then there are other reasons, not the decoder setting. The first is perhaps the voltage being supplied to the motor.

On DC it clearly depends on the controller you are using. If a basic Hornby or Bachmann controller, then it is a very "rough" DC and can be as high as 14 or 15volts if fed from a nominal 16v AC power supply.

On DCC it again depends on the voltage being supplied by the controller, but there are some other things to consider. If your Lenz is being fed from a 14v AC transformer, then the DCC voltage may well be less than 14v peak to peak. When this reaches the Decoder, it goes through a full wave rectifier on the decoder board before being turned into another high frequency pulse of power which is fed into the motor. This pulse will have a voltage at least 1.5v below the DCC voltage, so you could end up with less volts on the loco motor when driven at "maximum" on DCC than when driven at maximum on DC - so it won't go as fast!!!

My ZTC controller allows me to set maximum speed steps for each individual loco, so I set each up to reasonably represent the real locos. I allow my A4s to run at a scale 70mph or so, but set others lower. But in every case, I have left the decoder settings on their factory defaults.

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Petermac wrote: Will programming CV29 change the individual bits in a pre-set order ?  i.e.  If I set it to say 7, will it know that I want (for example), bit 1 at 0, bit 2 at 1 and so on until it totals 7 or will it just mess them all up to make 7, whatever the order ?


CV29 (and every other CV for that matter) is an 8 bit register. In the dim and distant past I ran a "human" computer simulation for 7 year olds in my wife's classroom and I illustrated registers and their values like so:-

We pretended that a row of desks represented a row of 8 identical terraced houses, each with their own house number. The first one is number 1, and the last number 8.

Each house starts off empty. (No one sitting at the any of the 8 desks)

We then take 8 children and give each one a binary value by hanging a label around their neck.

One is 1, another 2, a third 4, the fourth 8, the fifth 16, the sixth 32, the seventh 64 and the eighth 128. They each live in one of the eight houses, value 1 in house number 1, value 2 in house 2, value 4 in house 3, right up to value 128 in house number 8.

We then played a game to make up numbers from zero to 255. The children had to enter their house (actually sit at a desk) depending on the number on the blackboard. For zero all houses (desks) remained empty.

For the number 7, three children sat in their desks. They were values 1, 2 and 4 and they went into houses 1, 2 and 3 respectively.

For the number 248 (interesting number to choose!), five children would have sat in their desks, being values 128, 64, 32, 16 and 8 sitting in houses 8, 7, 6, 5, and 4 respectively - note that this is the opposite occupation to 7 (248 + 7 = 255 !!!!!)

 

And so it is for CV29 on your decoder. Each bit is a house, and each has a different value. If you want to set bits 1, 2 and 3, you program CV29 with 7. (bits 4,5,6,7,and 8 will then all be zero - empty houses!) If you want to set bits 2,3 and 4 (the default settings) you program CV29 with 14, leaving bits 1,5,6,7 and 8 at zero.

Any help?

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Masterful Geoff:thumbs:thumbs

I dont know about Peter but I found it to be the clearest explanation of the principal CVs I have read.........I did like the reference to 248 by the way!

I dont entirely agree with you about not adjusting the speed CVs with Lenz chips.....I do (but find it far easier and predictable that TCS) .......its probably because of all streamlined LNER jobs as opposed to my muck and grime where I dont like any loco to go faster than 35mph:lol:..............whatever I dont want to quibble or detract in any way from an excellent post.

Kind Regards

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I too found your explanations very clear and easy to understand Geoff - many, many thanks. :thumbs:thumbs

Your explanation of how CV 29 works was, as John said,  masterful - I want to go off and get 8 kids now but I fear I'm too old ...........:cry::cry::cry::cry::lol::lol::lol::lol:   I can at least go half way and build 8 terraced houses - thanks to John Wiffen .........I'll call them "On", "Off", "Normally Fwd", "Normally Rev", "DC Compatible" etc. etc........... ;-)

On my way home from Rotary tonight I thought I'd try resetting the decoder to factory defaults and start again.  You've confirmed that it's the right move.  I'll then see what happens using these values.  It's very interesting that you've never altered yours and maybe, for my A3 and A4, the same will apply.  I can similarly understand why John would want to reduce his top speeds given his modelled location.

Regarding the top speed John, it is the top speed rather than the manner in which it attains it.  Perhaps Geoff has the answer.  The DC controller is an old H & M single track controller and I suppose it's quite possible it supplies in excess of the 12v claimed.  I never thought about that - one tends to believe what it says on the packet................:roll:

I'll certainly look carefully for any kind of binding - it didn't do it before I took the body off so I'm rather suspicious.  On the other hand, could it be related to the back EMF ? :roll:  Your "binding/hopping" is what I'd call "hunting".  It moves in slight leaps rather than smoothly - as if the brakes are being constantly applied and released.  I mustn't over-exaggerate the condition.  It's certainly there but not a dramatic gait.

I have printed off the DCC Concepts notes and, as you say, some parts (the simple bits) are clear and useful - but also easy to assimilate.  Then it gets complicated suggesting dividing speed steps by the track voltage and ending up with 1/64th volt etc. etc.  As with most things "unknown", I wish we could start in layman's terms before moving onto binary logs etc.  :cry:

Geoff's houses do that admirably - but are the windows open or closed ..............:mutley:mutley:cheers

I shall probably invest in Ian Morton's book - if not for CV's then for other "useful" facts and figures.  I suspect he writes for idiots with hammers ..................

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Bunch of flowers on the way Mr Roberts.........:cheers:cheers:cheers

I reset the decoder to factory defaults, re-addressed it and away she goes - sweet as a pea. :thumbs

I did find some slight bending on the connecting rods caused by some ham-fisted idiot with hands bigger than shovels and as steady as an earthquake.  This was straightened by very gentle persuasion with a screwdriver or pair of small pliers - photos to follow perhaps tomorrow (more RLW tonight so no time - ugh but someone's got to keep these poor wine growers from starving ....:lol:)

I'm not going to tell you how I corrected the slow speed - I'll let you have some guesses.  The cryptic clue is: I know a lot more about Function 3 on a Lenz Silver decoder now .........:oops::oops::oops:  It's amazing what you find out if you read instructions .......;-)

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Glad the reset did the trick, Peter. I have read that it is worth doing that even when the decoder is supposedly brand new - just in case!

Careful now - not too much haste in using those extra Lenz functions. Now that you have discovered F3, you will be wanting to try F4 next!!

Sadly, whilst ESU have the same function as the Lenz does on F3, I have found that the preloaded sound chips in both the Bachmann and Hornby locos that I have seem to use several different F numbers. I guess a standard would have been too much to hope for. Sadly on Bachmann's A1 it is F11, and my controller will only operate up to F8, so I have to drive very carefully!!

 

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Hi peter,

 Do you have the LH100 hand set.?  If so I will try to simplify things a little.

 When you go into CV29 you will notice a row of small numbers bottom of screen which are the 8 bits in CV29.

 With 100 just press each number to turn that bit on/off and as ea number is pressed you will notice the value for that bit apear top right of screen.

 So with the LH100 you don't need to know the value for ea bit. Just turn it on/off by pressing the number the lenz will do it for you. If the small number shows it is on. Not showing means off.

 When you have numbers (value) you want  press enter. It is done.

Here is how I set my locos up

 Bit 1 = 28/128 speed steps Value =2

Bit 4= complex speed curve Value =16    Don't worry about this one yet just use CVs 2-5-6

 Bit 5 = 4 digit addressing  Value = 32

 Add those values together  = Total value  of 50.

 All other bits in CV29 = 0 or not turned on.

If I am not using a LH100 to program I put value of 50 in CV29.

If you are not using the complex 28 step speed curve

I wouldsuggest Bit 1= 28/128 speed step = on value 2

 If using 4 digit address  Bit 5= on value 32

  Giving a total of 34

 If not using 4 digit address leave bit 5 off value 0

 Which means you will only need Bit1 on value of 2 in CV29.

 Hope this helps.

 Cheers

  Ian

PS  If it does not go right reset decoder and start again.




 

Last edited on Sat Oct 6th, 2012 02:03 am by Iansa

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Thanks Ian - that does help a great deal. :thumbs

I do have the LH100 Hanset so it all slots into place nicely.  All these little "snippets" are certainly helping me to gain a better understanding of things.

I got in a muddle with the Function 3 because, at some stage, I must have pressed button 3 and hadn't remembered that simply pressing the button activated the function.  I "cut my teeth" on the EZ starter unit and to access the functions there, you had to first press the "F" key ......................:oops::oops:

Maybe too many things going on at once in too small a brain ......:cheers

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Glad it got sorted Peter....................Geoff you are a great exponent of the KISS principle!

Thanks for the tip about decoder reset.......I tend to do it as a solution of last resort.........doing it as preventive maintenance immediately after installation sounds a good idea

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John Dew wrote: Glad it got sorted Peter....................Geoff you are a great exponent of the KISS principle!

Thanks for the tip about decoder reset.......I tend to do it as a solution of last resort.........doing it as preventive maintenance immediately after installation sounds a good idea


John,

I realise that this is a little out of context, but we all tend to carry on doing the same things that seem to be beneficial. You may have no plans to run sound decoders, but in case you do.......

I would not advocate this approach for user-programmable sound decoders. Many pre-loaded sound projects require non-standard CVs to work correctly. Re-setting to factory defaults would not lose the sounds - usually - but may well effect how the sounds react to control inputs.

Both ESU and Zimo have ways to 'lock' the project, or to provide a means for 'safe' re-set which restores the sound project's default CVs rather than 'factory', but it would be advisable to check that the sound author has enable this facility during the original compilation.

Kind regards,

Paul


                 

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