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John's Workbench - On Members Workbenches. - More Practical Help - Your Model Railway Club
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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2013 04:31 pm
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aberdare
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Lovely work John.

I have loads of brass kits to make later and I shall refer to your thread when I get that far especially where it concerns 6 wheelers.

Thanks for posting.

Jim



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2013 04:48 pm
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Brossard
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Jim, I hope that my narrative helps you and anyone else to build these sort of kits.  It's nice to have something out of the ordinary.

John



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2013 05:29 pm
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Brossard
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So, for my next trick.....

This Hornby LMS 6 Wheeled Milk van has been in it's original box for years.  I will attempt to convert it to EM and give it a more plausible underframe:




The first thing was to check the model against the real thing.  I have Jenkinson and Essery's LMS Coaches which is pretty much the bible for LMS modellers.  The van body looks to be pretty much spot on, so I needn't touch that.  The solebars are too wide being flush with the body on the model but clearly recessed on the real thing.  There is some exquisite lettering so I must save it.

The less said about the underframe the better, pretty execrable, although the wheels seem to be quite fine.

My first question was, do I have the bits I will need to rework the underframe?  Answer is yes :doublethumb


The main thing will be to replace the W irons with finer ones.  Those on the left are from Bill Bedford, obtained from Eileen's Emporium.

The WM axleboxes and J hangers are from Comet.

John



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 Posted: Fri Nov 1st, 2013 08:15 pm
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Brossard
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I stripped the model.  Wheels were 12mm dia so not suitable.  I have some Gibson 14mm in my wheel box.

I spent some time today preparing wheels.

Something Bill Bedford said on another forum the other day got me thinking. He was talking about how the real thing copes with the center axle, which is to allow it to move from side to side. I have encountered many complicated ways to do this but his solution is very simple. Mount the wheels on a tube 22mm long for EM & P4 (20mm for 00) and insert a 26mm long steel rod. The rod goes in the pinpoint bearing.




It just so happens that the Gibson wheels have 1.5mm axles and, in my scrap box I had some brass tube that is a smidge over that. I also have some 0.032" steel wire (used for Tortoise actuators), which by a remarkable coincidence fits very nicely inside the tube :Happy




Here's the wheelset with the steel rod inserted. What a good do.

John




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 Posted: Sat Nov 2nd, 2013 08:23 pm
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Brossard
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I spent the day scratchbuilding a new underframe for the van.




I used Pro Weld to glue everything together - it seems to be very strong.  I wasn't certain because the plastic used by the manufacturers can be resistant to most solvents.

I kept the original solebars and made a new floor, this time in the correct position with 0.040" Evergreen sheet.  Buffer beams are Evergreen strip.

The coupling hook plate was taken from a MJT wagon compensation etch.

Buffers are also MJT and are designed to be sprung.  My experience in the past is that I muck the springing up, so we'll see.  As with so many things in this hobby the buffer bodies require some careful prep.  Holding the body with pliers I gently, with my thumb and forefinger, twirled a 1mm drill in the hole.  There's a small hole at the back and this was opened up with a 0.020" (0.5mm) drill.  The object is to get the buffer to slide in the body freely.  The reason for the different hole sizes is that a VERY tiny spring is captured between the buffer and body.  Drilling the 1mm hole too deeply will defeat the spring design.




I should add that when reviewing my info on 6 wheeled vans I came across a Model Rail article by George Dent that I had scanned.  The article discusses upgrading this and the GWR Palethorpes van (I've got one of these as well), in a similar fashion to my plan.  Unfortunately because I'm working in 8.5 x 11", the issue date was cut off.

John



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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 06:37 am
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That dodge with the sliding centre wheel set is devilishly clever, John! If I ever get around to making my six-wheel imitation SECR coaches work again I'll try that - as it is, they use the old Triang bodge of fixed wheels (and I mean 'fixed' !) with the bottom of the flange filed flat to skim over the tops of the rails.

The whole conversion you are doing looks very interesting.

:cool:



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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 07:42 am
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This is really interesting
.I can vouch that this works having done a few 6 wheelers in EM like this.in one case all three axles move .The treated coaches all negotiate the 36 inch radius curves and turnouts in my fiddle yard and easily manage the larger radi1 in the layout itself.the other advantage is in the springing 010 guitar string. The disadvantage is that it is a bit fiddly and you get stabbed by bits of said guitar string!
weight in the vehicle helps about two ounces( 60g) seems enough for a Ratio cut and shut 6 wheel brake third.
 looking forward to next chapter.

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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 12:33 pm
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Brossard
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Thanks Jeff.  Clever but not my idea.  Bill Bedford's aftermarket kits all feature this sprung system and, as I said, it was he who mentioned the sliding axle the other day.  Also, George Dent used the same dodge.

Robber, I've been debating whether to allow the outer axle(s) to swivel.  I will do some trials to see what is best.  I have a 36" rad point on my test track.  I actually find assembling the laminated brakes more fiddly than the springing, although I have been stabbed in the past.  I was thinking that weight should be somewhere between 50g (goods wagon) and 100g (coach) - 80g was swirling around my head.

Stay tuned.

John



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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 01:24 pm
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The weight thing is a matter of trial and error , in my case anyway.I started off with 25g for a wagon and 50g for a four wheel then 60g for a six wheeler,and it works mostly.these just happened to be the weights i had. Ive no doubt that 50 and 80g is ok maybe better so I went to the fiddle yard and added 20g to the wagon on test and 20 to the test coach,both run better! so thank you for that .I,ll go with pinpoint bearings and 50g for wagon and 80 for coach.

best wishes
robberdoc

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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 01:58 pm
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I tend to add 2 seven gram weights to the bottoms of my 4-wheel Bachmann and Hornby wagons...I find that gives them just enough weight when empty to ride the rails reasonably solidly and very solidly when they have cargo in them. I think I checked and that gives open goods wagons pretty close to the extrapolated NMRA recommended weights based on their length...it certainly makes them ride better and gets rid of most of the model rocking one sees.



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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 02:28 pm
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Brossard
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What does that do to the total weight Gene?  ISTR reading somewhere that 50g for a 4 wheeled wagon is the rule of thumb (and of course there will be differing opinions) with additional 10g per axle.  RTR coaches come in at around 100g, unmodified, which seems about right.

In any event, most RTR wagons, despite having installed weight, seem to be kind of light.

John



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 Posted: Sun Nov 3rd, 2013 11:52 pm
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Brossard
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It's been one of those 2 steps forward and 1 step back kind of days.  I managed to make up the W-irons, but it was the brakes that proved to be the most time consuming.  The brake folds up from the main fret to receive a folded over laminate to give the brake shoes some definition.  I got the bright idea to use a piece of brass wire through three holes in these etches to align everything.  Only after I'd soldered everything did I realise that I needed the holes to be open to receive the yokes.  So I spent a fair bit of time laboriously drilling out the brass wire.  It would have been better to use a fine broach (or something that won't solder) to align the holes while soldering...ah well, I really should have known better.

Anyway, the hard part is done:




You can see the progression of the W-irons.  I want to stress that you really need to use waisted bearings for these spring dooby dobs.  The cone will more easily slide inside the axlebox, the hole will require lengthening.

You can see the bearing holders with wire attached.  This is sharp!  My fingers are full of holes!

The W-iron assembly can be seen.  I found that it is best to fold up the W-iron part first.  If you have bending bars they are ideal, as it is I used flat head pliers and needle nose pliers to alternately fold the W-iron and then bend out the kinks from the distortion.  Brakes are a major fiddle as I mentioned.  Be careful to avoid bending the brakes until absolutely necessary, that half etch will fatigue and break very quickly.  Finally there's a reinforcing flange on the base that gets folded up and reinforced with solder.

The next W-iron has the bearing holders installed and finally we can see the wheel set installed.

I think that's the hard part done.

John



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 Posted: Mon Nov 4th, 2013 04:36 am
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Genetk44
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It adds 14 grams of weight John....every litte bit helps,especially on things like empty coal wagons or other open types. I'm not at hoe but if I remember correctly it brigs the weight up pretty close to 50 grams, but I could be wrong .....



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 Posted: Mon Nov 4th, 2013 09:33 pm
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Brossard
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Another one of those back and forth days as we take this journey of discovery.:shock:

I carried out trials with the W iron assemblies installed.

First off, I found everything was too high, so I had to rebuild the underframe so I could mount the W irons flush with the tops of the solebars.

Next I spent time adjusting the bearing height so that at rest they sit about midway in the guide.  There's an etched mark.

Next, I found that there wasn't enough compensation with just the center axle sideplay, so I gave the outer axles a swivel and that seems to have done the trick.

The final result of today's work:




Sitting on the point crossing with plastiscene for weight.  Buffer height is about right as well.




Under the bonnet, not very pretty at this stage.

John



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 Posted: Tue Nov 5th, 2013 07:29 pm
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Ah, a dough carrying wagon.  Good idea. :lol:

Terry

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 Posted: Tue Nov 5th, 2013 08:12 pm
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Brossard
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Oooh! You are cheeky!  Been at it all day and now my brain hurts.

John



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 Posted: Sun Dec 1st, 2013 08:16 pm
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Brossard
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Having lost my post on the Milk Van, I will reprint it, this time using Photobucket links:

Besides the picture (of 38550) shown in LMS Coaches by Essery and Jenkinson, there is one other picture (of 38551) in an article by Essery in LMS Journal 31.  This article also contains a works drawing of the brake rigging. 


I went down several dead ends and my sanity was severely tested on this build.  I won't bore you with that and simply cut to the chase.

Body:

Generally accurate but Hornby used their generic Palethorpes mould.  The ladder, platforms and ice hatch have to be removed and the roof filled and smoothed over.

Underframe:

I did a complete scratch build using Evergreen sheet and strip.


[/URL]

The heart of the underframe is a Slater's Cleminson chassis:

[/URL]

Not the most ideal choice, being designed for 00 and for their six wheeled MR coaches.  A better choice would have been a universal chassis such as Brassmasters (next time).  In the event, the only mod I had to make for EM was to detach the W irons and stick them to the solebars.  The wheelbase was, fortunately correct.

Wheels:

I thinned some Bachmann coach wheels to 2.2 - 2.3 mm.

I spent rather a long time detailing the underframe. The strategy for painting and assembling all the bits took a fair bit of thought.

So, here we are:

[/URL]

Here's a shot of the underside:

[/URL]

John



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 Posted: Mon Dec 2nd, 2013 11:23 am
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Marty
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Ooer.... I want one... in N scale... sigh.... I won't be going to the same extent on the under frame though.... I respect my level of sanity to much (see what I did there?) :lol:
Superb work John.
cheersMarty



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 Posted: Mon Dec 2nd, 2013 06:13 pm
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Lovely job John,
Catching uo on our server problem.
Thinning the Bachman wheels is a good idea for EM.
I think the loco wheels will need a similar treatment for the conversion.
regards,
Derek.

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 Posted: Mon Dec 2nd, 2013 06:58 pm
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Brossard
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Thanks guys.  I've no idea how one would do such a thing in N Marty.  I hope you show us if your mental health is up to it.

Derek, thinning the coach wheels wasn't difficult.  As we discussed, thinning 00 loco wheels might be a way forward.  Wonder why I haven't heard of it being done before.

John



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